Khitan Lioa "halberd"

[stevenneate]

Funnily enough, I only just read this when I posted, as Graff is the book I took away for the 4-day weekend I'm on in the back of beyond.

[Duncan Head]

OK, comparing Wittfogel & Feng's translation with the Liao Shi text at https://chinesenotes.com/liaoshi/liaoshi034.html, putting the relevant paragraph in Google Translate and using the latter's dictionary to clarify the meanings of individual words, I think the character translated "halberd" is yue .

The situation is slightly complicated (for people like me with no command of Chinese) by the fact that the text has two characters 斧 鉞 fu yue, both meaning "axe", together. The Liao Shi online text makes it look as if these two characters form one word, whereas W&F, in the bit of the list translated as "axe, halberd", seem to be translating fu as axe and yue as halberd. In classical Zhou sources, where these two words are first encountered, they usually indicate two different kinds of axe, yue being used for larger blades and sometimes translated broad-axe or battle-axe.

Short conclusion: someone should point a Chinese speaker at the Liao Shi text, but I think we are dealing with a word more related to axe than to spear.

[Keraunos]

The oracle - my son, a chinese reader & speaker and current researcher into Qing history - provides the following:

The Liao Shi does indeed render the two characters as the single phrase 斧鉞 fuyue, but as Classical Chinese texts were not usually punctuated, there is no particular reason to assume either way as to whether these were supposed to be two separate words or a compound. There also seem to be two slightly different definitions: one which specifically denotes a form of heavy battle-axe, and another where it refers more generally to all sorts of axe-like weapons. Either way, it would seem that the term translated 'halberd' by Wittfogel and Feng perhaps should have been grouped with the preceding one instead of taken in isolation, and that the Liao cavalryman was expected to possess some form of battleaxe.


I hope this is helpful.

[Duncan Head]

Thanks, Kim, that is helpful.

I've just found a Wikipedia reference to the combination "fuyue" being used in martial arts contexts for halberd - "Fuyue (halberds of various types)". There are other references to the compound term - as a symbol of Imperial-derived authority in both ancient and late-Imperial periods. This reinforces the idea that we're probably looking at one word, though doesn't help much as to what the weapon actually looked like.

[tadamson]

drawn in by "...current researcherinto Quing history..."

organisation, equipment, deployment of non banner troops is sparse, should a research field be needed.  :-)

A couple of caveats..

Yue is commonly used in the histories and the encyclopedias. It typically refers to polearms in general and is the usual term for those weilded by guards and household troops.

I think that this text, written in the Yuan dynasty, was lifted from a Liao or Jin source. It's clearly a list of items and probaby this element refers to a hand axe and a polearm. That said I would futher suggest that a polearm would be for dismounted use whe on guard or in a fortification.

Tom..

[Keraunos]

Thanks, Kim, that is helpful.

I've just found a Wikipedia reference to the combination "fuyue" being used in martial arts contexts for halberd - "Fuyue (halberds of various types)". There are other references to the compound term - as a symbol of Imperial-derived authority in both ancient and late-Imperial periods. This reinforces the idea that we're probably looking at one word, though doesn't help much as to what the weapon actually looked like.

I would be careful of material drawn from martial arts traditions.  Much of this, as in Japan, is drawn from 19th century nationalist ideas rather than having any basis in older history.

[Keraunos]

drawn in by "...current researcherinto Quing history..."

organisation, equipment, deployment of non banner troops is sparse, should a research field be needed.  :-)

That may be forthcoming, though as a side interest rather than part of the main research.  A little patience will be needed as he is only in the first year of the PhD course and seems to have set aside his painting of Qing armies for tanks at the moment 

[tadamson]

Had a think..

fu - originaly 'battle-axe' by the time of the Liao Shi also used as a generic axe.

yue - the shou yuan (western Han) specificaly says it's an axe with a long handle.
(there was some confusion in early commentators as to which, fu or yue, had the long or short wooden handle)

fuyue - as a compound word, modern romantisied stuff (think Victorian names for European polearms).