1211 velite reforms

[Mark G]

not that big a drop to make a velite shield or a sword unaffordable - although it would make a neat solution if it were

[Jim Webster]

No but a big enough drop to make body armour unaffordable. So the state was picking up a lot bigger bill for equipment
Suddenly equipping more of them as velites might have seemed quite a bright idea to the accountants :-)

[Patrick Waterson]

Do we have a source which tells us about this drop in property qualification?  I just want to be sure it is not just a theory that arose to explain an assumed increase in light infantry c.211 BC which is now being drawn upon to justify the original assumption ... 

It is also hard to link any such drop in property qualification (which would take place early in the year, before the legions were enrolled or re-enrolled) with a supposed reform that did not take place until well into the campaign season.  For several months the legions would have to be operating as neither one thing nor the other.

For me, this casts a measure of doubt on the suggestion.

[Mark G]

I think we are confusing a couple of things.

there was a reduction in qualifications for enlistment at the start of a campaign year during the punic wars after the disastrous losses
- but this is not the same as the suggested reequipping of velites around Capua mid way through a campaign which this thread raised
- nor is it the same as the change in legion from what is commonly called camillan to what is commonly called polybian - which was when the 1200 velites make an appearance.

[Jim Webster]

Trouble is, I read it in Arnold J. Toynbee's, Hannibal's Legacy, back in the 1970s and don't have the books to hand :-(  (Library loan I'm afraid)

[oldbob]

The Velites were drawn from the Legion, guessing from the Hastati? When did the Hastati stop being a mainly skirmishing troop type? This has always confuse me .

[Patrick Waterson]

As far as I can tell, hastati never were a skirmishing troop type (with the exception below*).  We have little detail on the legion prior to 340 BC, at which point Livy springs upon us the following organisation:

Livian ('Camillan') Legion

Antepilani
Hastati: 15 maniples each of 60 heavy infantry and 20 leves (skirmishers) - *each hastati maniple contains two troop types.
Principes: 15 maniples each of 80 heavy infantry

Pilani (ordines)
Triarii: 15 maniples each of 60 heavy infantry
Rorarii: 15 maniples each of 60 heavy infantry

Also present in 340 BC were the emergency supplementary troops, the Accensi, in 15 maniples each of 60 heavy infantry.  Livy gives the impression that these were an integral part of the legion, but they were only levied in emergencies.  Without them, the legion coincidentally has its traditional strength of 4,200 infantry (often rounded to 4,000 in our sources).  With them, it has 5,100 (usually rounded to 5,000 in our sources).

Note that this legion has only 300 skirmishers (15x20 leves).

From perhaps 311 BC we have the 'Polybian' legion.

Polybian Legion

Antepilani
Hastati: 10 maniples each of 120 heavy infantry
Principes: 10 manipes each of 120 heavy infantry

Pilani
Triarii: 10 maniples each of 60 infantry

Each maniple of hastati, principes and triarii also attached 40 velites.  As with the earlier leves, once their skirmishing duties were over, they formed the last two ranks of their respective heavy infantry maniples (which got them out of the way and meant they could still make a useful contribution).

The increase from 300 skirmishing types to 1,200 appears to result from the Samnite wars, specifically the second.

The Polybian legion also had an emergency strength of 5,000, obtained by increasing the hastati and principes maniples to 160 each.  During and after the Second Punic war, this notional emergency strength became the norm.  Curiously enough, centuries as on-field military subunits make their first appearance in the Polybian legion, and in a 5,000-strong legion with the velites added in to their respective maniples, each century is coincidentally 100 men.  We may also note that, like its predecessor, it had a 4,200-man and a 5,000-man establishment.

[Mark G]

I agree with Pat that the Hastatii were never skirmishing troops.

but their development does offer the possibility that they were intended as being a half way step before the main line -able to get out of camp and into line faster than the fully armoured guys.

their equipment also suggests that they were not intended to move directly into hand to hand, but could hold a line until such troops were in position - big shields and throwing weapons are - to my mind - intended for more fluid defence than for aggressive attacks.

that this combination actually worked as line of battle in itself enabled the further change to full line of battle hand to hand men - and I expect it happened quite quickly - but I muse that it was not the full original intention.

there is also the possibility that the velites were scouting on the march, and the hastatii - again, being less encumbered and presumably younger also, could run into position and form a holding line while the main men formed out when attacked en-route.  I say possibility, because these Romans were always particularly poor at scouting and screening themselves on the march, but up in the forested hills, it becomes essential to have the option, I think.

[Patrick Waterson]

there is also the possibility that the velites were scouting on the march, and the hastatii - again, being less encumbered and presumably younger also, could run into position and form a holding line while the main men formed out when attacked en-route.  I say possibility, because these Romans were always particularly poor at scouting and screening themselves on the march, but up in the forested hills, it becomes essential to have the option, I think.

Polybius (VI.40) tells us that this sort of thing, or at least vanguard/rearguard duty, was undertaken by the extraordinarii, the pick of the allied Italian alae (legion equivalents).  We are not told whether their equipment differed from that of their compatriots.

He does however specify (VI.23) that the hastati and principes of his time carried identical equipment.  Livy's 340 BC legion has the hastati (other than the attached leves) and the principes apparently armed with the same equipment, although the principes have "insignibus maxime armis", equipment of the best quality.

I cannot find any account of hastati acting as other than formed heavy infantry; although the peltast model has obvious appeal, our accounts of hastati in action have them getting stuck in just like principes, only earlier.  In particular, in the battle against the Insubres on 223 BC (Polybius II.33) the hastati are issued with triarii spears which they hold out point-first to encourage the Gauls to chop the hafts, and as soon as the Gauls have finished their downstroke the hastati close mano a mano and give them the point of the gladius.  Although this is an unusual battle, it does demonstrate the hastati having a close combat role from the outset.

[Mark G]

and do you have any descriptions of the early samnite battles, Pat?

[oldbob]

Pat and Mark, thank you for replying. I know my argument is weak, but I just can't understand a nation like Rome putting their youth and the future of their country in the front battle-line  lightly armorer and trained   to fight, if that was the case why not equip them as shock troops instead of what seems to be light infantry equipment?

[Patrick Waterson]

And the hastati were indeed equipped as close-combat troops; the one thing we can be certain of (thanks to Livy) is that they carried a scutum in 340 BC and were still carrying it when Polybius wrote c.150 BC.  Polybius notes that the hastati "were required to wear a complete panoply" (VI.23) which he describes as a thureos (scutum), bronze helmet, greaves and chest-piece.  This is definitely heavy infantry equipment.

Again according to Polybius the degree of body (torso) armour was a function of individual wealth: the chest-piece seems to have been standard issue but men rated at 10,000 drachmae or more bought their own mail thorax which would provide better protection.

and do you have any descriptions of the early samnite battles, Pat?

We have those in Livy, which are usually depicted as Roman walk-overs, but one can learn something from them.

The first such engagement,  in which each side was trying out the other, occurred in 343 BC and went like this: 

"The battle began, if ever battle did, with like hopes on both sides and equal strength, and a self-confidence which yet was not mixed with contempt for the enemy. [6] The Samnites were' emboldened by their recent exploits and by their double victory of a few days before [against the Sidicini and Campanians - PW], the Romans on their part by the glories of four centuries and a victorious career that dated from the founding of the City; [7] each side nevertheless experienced some anxiety at meeting an untried foe. The engagement testified how resolute they were, for they so fought that for some time neither battle-line gave ground. [8] Then the consul, thinking that he must inspire his enemies with fear, since he could not drive them back by force, attempted by sending in the cavalry to 'throw their front ranks into disorder. [9] But when he saw that nothing came of the confused fighting of the squadrons, as they tried to manœuvre in a narrow space, and that they could not break the enemy's line, he rode back: to the front ranks of his legions, and, dismounting from his horse, exclaimed, "Soldiers, it is for us, the infantry, to accomplish yonder task! [10] Come, as you shall see me making a path for myself with my sword wherever I advance against the enemy's line, so do you every man strike down whom you encounter; all that array where now uplifted spears are glancing you shall see laid open with great carnage." [11] No sooner had he said these words, than the horsemen, by the consul's order, drew off towards the wings and left the legions room to attack the centre. [12] The consul was the very foremost in the charge, and slew the man he chanced to meet with. Kindled by this sight, the Romans on the right and on the left pushed forward, every man of them, and fought a memorable combat; the Samnites stood manfully at bay, but they took more strokes than they delivered.

[13] The battle had now lasted a considerable time; there was dreadful slaughter about the standards of the Samnites, but as yet no retreating anywhere, so determined were they to be overcome by naught but death. [14] And so the Romans, who saw that their strength was fast ebbing away in weariness and that little daylight yet remained, were filled with rage, and hurled themselves against the enemy. [15] Then for the first time were there signs of giving way and the beginning of a rout; then were the Samnites captured or slain; nor would many have survived, if night had not ended what was now a victory rather than a battle. [16] The Romans admitted that never had they fought with a more stubborn adversary; [17] and the Samnites, on being asked what it was that first had turned them, resolute as they were, to flight, replied that it was the eyes of the Romans, which had seemed to blaze, and their frenzied expression and infuriated looks; this it was more than anything else that had caused their panic."

What we can extract from this is that the consul seems to be exhorting the 'front ranks of the legions' [antesignanos legionum, i.e. the hastati and principes] to do their utmost in close combat.  The character of the action is of close combat, with the consul on foot among the hastati being the first to slay his man, or at least being portrayed as such.

[Jim Webster]

Pat and Mark, thank you for replying. I know my argument is weak, but I just can't understand a nation like Rome putting their youth and the future of their country in the front battle-line  lightly armorer and trained   to fight, if that was the case why not equip them as shock troops instead of what seems to be light infantry equipment?

Remember that for a start it was up to the individual to equip himself, it was not, initially at least, the state's responsibility.
So Hastati equipment would doubtless range from entirely adequate down to barely adequate.
One suspects that if a velite came into money (or captured good kit) he might find himself drifted seamlessly into the Hastati :-)

Jim

[Mark G]

Didn't you find something a year or so ago indicating that this was not automatically the case during a campaign, Pat?

[Jim Webster]

Didn't you find something a year or so ago indicating that this was not automatically the case during a campaign, Pat?

In a campaign things are flexible. It's just that when a man returns home with his loot, that can lift him to a different property band and his contribution would then be reassessed next time he's called up

Jim