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Here is an article from Gary Brueggeman, well known for his work on the Roman army, served up by those nice people at Karwansaray.

Looks like there is lots here to argue about, as Roman infantry combat is nearly as contentious as hoplite warfare.  Have at it you Romans!

I was just reading a bit of that! I found it annoying that he was not consistent with his units when he is talking about speed of the advance. One instant he is using time and the next steps and then paces. By paces does he mean steps? He also talks about the Romans striking at the opponent on their right, because him likely being right-handed would be open on his "left". ()

And then there is the commentary by a SLA member that they would run at their opponents and ram them - like they are playing American football. And we are expected to take this [SLA] person seriously?

Next someone will be telling me Achilles' leaping attack from the movie Troy is accurate! 

Quote from: altfritz on April 07, 2021, 06:21:21 PM

Next someone will be telling me Achilles' leaping attack from the movie Troy is accurate! 

Some good stuff and a lot that IMHO is wrong, being based on wrong premises. Take for example this part on pila throwing:

Which ranks threw their pila? The usual unspoken assumption is that they all did. Can this be correct? The illustration below shows the trajectory of all 8 ranks if they all threw at exactly the same time. Each rank is separated by 7 feet to allow enough space between them for the pila to be used. Even in this idealized "best case" example it is clear that only one or two ranks could reach the enemy effectively and that the rearmost ranks would actually be a danger to their own front ranks. It thus seems pretty clear that not all of the ranks could throw their pila during the charge.

Notice the assumptions:

a) the legionaries and their enemies are stationary at the time the pila are thrown,

b) the legionaries are seven feet per rank,

c) the legionaries can't throw pila further than 56 feet granted 7 feet per rank in the diagram (I'm allowing 14 feet between the front legionary and the pilum thrown by the 8th rank man.

To answer them:

a) who says either the legionaries or their opponents were stationary? If their opponents were advancing the Romans could do a timed volley, with the front rank throwing first, followed by the second rank, then the third and so on, each rank throwing its pila with the enemy in range. If the enemy were stationary then the legionaries' front rank could throw pila, followed by and advance of a couple of steps and the second rank throws, and so on.

b) six feet according to Vegetius and this corresponds to the open order of ranks following the tacticians

c) This is nonsense. The school athletic records for a javelin throw are 255 feet for boys and 150 feet for girls. What were the Romans - invalids? Allow legionaries to throw a pilum at least to 150 feet. If they are in a 10-rank formation that means their line is about 60 feet deep which means they can, after all, stand still and all throw their pila when about 90 feet from the enemy. The front rank pila will land further than the rear rank ones but since the enemy line is presumably at least as deep as theirs that means pretty much all those pila will score hits.

There's a lot more like this but enough for now.

the distance for throwing a pila is definitely warped. BUT it depends on trajectory. If on an arc greater than 50-60 feet is easily achieveable

I am going to show my ignorance here

I always assumed that the Pilum was a lot heavier than a javelin hence its short range

Probably based on no more than the WRG Heavy Throwing Weapon category

no ignorance at all. It depends on the type of pilum being used as there is a range of weights potentially

Quote from: Dave Knight on April 07, 2021, 08:34:37 PM
I am going to show my ignorance here

I always assumed that the Pilum was a lot heavier than a javelin hence its short range

Probably based on no more than the WRG Heavy Throwing Weapon category

According to the Wiki article a pilum weighed between 0.9 and 2.3kg (an olympic javelin weighs 0.8kg for men and 0.6kg for women). Experiments* show a pilum could be thrown to a range of 33 metres (36 yards) or a little in excess of 100 feet, so a volley from about 40-50 feet should get all the pila where you want them.

*personally I would allow the Romans a greater distance since they spent all their time building up those arm muscles by digging and training with double-weighted wooden swords.

Maybe he got his [measuring] units messed up again?!  And, yes, I suspect a Roman Soldier was much fitter than a typical modern-day  civilian (and many military). Stronger, Leaner, Harder all round.

Your treating pila like javelins though, completely ignoring the things that make them difference.

What counts is not maximum range (it almost never matters )
What matters is effective range.

Who cares if any javelin can be thrown 100m if it just bounces off a shield.  Your achieved nothing with it.
What counts is the range it is effective at.  For a pila that means the range it penetrates the shield, and that is very close.  But once it penetrates, your following up immediately against someone who has either been stuck through his shield, or has a bloody great anchor hanging out of it and stopping him using it as he trained.  And your on him, with your super efficient killing sword .

Ditto this crazy overhead volley nonsense.  Why?  You can see the target, you may hit your comrades in front ( who are moving in the same direction you throw), and your using all this super efficient short range ammunition on blind area shots.

Better to let the front rank go in, kill and maim, pull back, and then let the next rank step forward and repeat.

Quote from: Holly on April 07, 2021, 08:04:15 PM
the distance for throwing a pila is definitely warped. BUT it depends on trajectory. If on an arc greater than 50-60 feet is easily achieveable

When you talk about feet, do you mean steps or paces?

feet as in metres/3

I think the steps/paces thing may be the difference between the single pace (gradus) (right foot to left foot) and the double pace (passus) (right foot to right foot).  A gradus was 2.5 Roman feet, a passus 5 Roman feet.  A Roman foot was 29.6 cm.

I suspect a pilum doesn't lose much energy over a 100 foot  (not metres) flight. (speed is slow, mass is high, streamlined shape). Probably no difference between effective and maximum range.



Do we have any data on this?

From a position of total ignorance all I have to offer on the subject is my experiences throwing balls for our dogs.

Simply throwing a ball by hand doesn't send it very far. Using a "ball thrower" - a type of atlatl - does allow you to throw the ball considerably further.
Of course experience does make a significant difference. Cricket players can throw a ball waaaaaaayyyyyyy further than I can ever imagine, even when using a ball thrower.

I suspect skirmish troops would be able to throw their javelins considerably further that someone who doesn't have the opportunity to do a preparatory "run up".

I appreciate I'm talking balls (and javelins) rather than pila but just thought I'd chip in with my two pen'orth.

Geoff