When were the Quadi fully Sarmaticized?

[rodge]

Ammianus' text (17.12.1-16) shows that the Sarmatians ('Sarmatians' probably refers only to the Iazyges) fought in the same manner.

But does anyone know when the Quadi were Sarmaticized?

Whilst digging in some very sparse ground in an attempt to find out I found this, via googlebooks:

'Our Forefathers'
A Manual of the Ethnography of the Gothic, German, Dutch, Anglo-Saxon, Frisian and Scandinavian Peoples
Vol 2, Gudmund Schutte
CUP

Schutte notes that the Quadi and Suebi names are synonymous and for centuries the names appear in connection to the Pannonian Sarmates.
The Iazygas annex the west Dacian plains c.44BC (Pliny) the Quadi/Suebi later appear in Moravia probably with the agreement of the Iazyges.
This is the earliest connection, however Schutte tells us we are ignorant of the circumstances that led them to an entente 'lasting several centuries'.
Various alliances but no mutual wars are recorded this early, however they share the tributes from the Cotini and Osi tribes (Tacitus) and we have Ammianus on the adoption of the scale armour and sword worship much later.

Back in AD20 the Quadi are ruled by Vannius who is a vassal of Rome (Tacitus), Schutte says 'Vannius reigns successfully for 30 years, supported by his Sarmatian cavalry' but in 51AD he is dethroned by his nephews and Claudius receives Vannius and his followers in Pannonia (Tacitus).

In 69AD Quadi and Iazyges serves side by side as mercenaries for Vespasian (Tacitus), in 92AD they turn put again together and Tacitus says 'now they [Quadi] even tolerate foreign kings' i.e. probably Iazyges.

We then arrive at the Marcomannic Wars where the Quadi and Sarmatians are listed together; after Marcus ejects them from Pannonia he brings forward a new king for the Quadi, one 'Furtius' (Dio), who's name is Sarmatian (Schutte).

In 170 Quadi and Iazyges together threaten the capital of Dacia.
After the Quadi are beaten Marcus does not allow them to ally with the Iazyges (Dio), obviously together they are trouble.

Quadi and Sarmates invade Pannonia in 255; Aurelian repulses both of them in 270, Numerianus in 284, and by Constantius in 357 and 358.
365-7 Valentinian builds forts on Quadic territory and the Quadic king is murdered when he objects; they both invade Pannonia (again) but are repulsed.

By 390 Ammianus has the Quadi subdued.
Then it's 406 and all that....

So any Sarmaticized Quadi could probably be from 255 or it could be earlier, 92AD, if 'serving side by side' [above] is interpreted as 'as one tactically as well as in alliance' and Tacitus' 'foreign kings' [above] does mean an Iazyges leader.

I'd be interested in any thoughts.

[Duncan Head]

I would say that during the Danube wars of Marcus Aurelius and Commodus, although we hear of Marcomanni, Quadi, and Iazyges (and indeed Buri, Cotini, and others) acting together in various combinations, the Quadi seem to be more often and more closely associated with the Marcomanni than with the Iazyges; I would take this to mean that up to the 190s, Sarmatian influence on the Quadi was still quite limited.

The thesis "Marcomannia in the making" might be worth looking at - can't immediately find anything specifically on the Quadi.

[rodge]

Thanks
Not seen that thesis
So you think if gaming the Marcomannic Wars (to Marcus' death in 180) the Quadi are not Sarmaticized?

On a quick look through the thesis the Quadi are mentioned from page 28 onwards, mostly in the same breath as the Marcomanni, however on page 28 the author says this:

With the help of the Batavi, the Romans defeated the Iazyges, and possibly the Quadi, who are collectively named as the Sarmatians in ancient sources.

This happened in 117 [the first year of Hadrian's rule].
It's difficult to tease out what an alliance between the Quadi and the Iazyges produced.
If they had been a deux since AD20 under Vannius then there may be a case for the intervening 97 years providing room for the Quadi to be Sarmaticized...but who knows.....

[aligern]

Is this a case where archaeology might help? Presumably Sarmaticising is related to the Quadi moving into the Pannonian plains and away from the forests because there is not much point in be ing a Sarmatian in dense woodland. Is there any dated  trace of such movement.
Roy

[rodge]

Is this a case where archaeology might help? Presumably Sarmaticising is related to the Quadi moving into the Pannonian plains and away from the forests because there is not much point in be ing a Sarmatian in dense woodland. Is there any dated  trace of such movement.

From my earlier post this is what I have found to part answer the pannonian question:

We then arrive at the Marcomannic Wars where the Quadi and Sarmatians are listed together; after Marcus ejects them from Pannonia he brings forward a new king for the Quadi, one 'Furtius' (Dio), who's name is Sarmatian (Schutte).

Quadi and Sarmates invade Pannonia in 255; Aurelian repulses both of them in 270, Numerianus in 284, and by Constantius in 357 and 358.
365-7 Valentinian builds forts on Quadic territory and the Quadic king is murdered when he objects; they both invade Pannonia (again) but are repulsed.


The Marcomannic War incursion is 167-8 depending on who you believe; the second is dated.

[Duncan Head]

Is this a case where archaeology might help?

It was searching "quadi archaeology" that found me the Marcomannia thesis: not sure what else might be out there.

[rodge]

This paper:

http://www.magtudin.org/puspoki%20Eng.%201.htm

has the Quadi in modern Western Slovakia at the beginning of the 1stC AD. There are two settlements between the Vag and Garam rivers.
The author says:

The other large Quad settlement was on the western bank of the River Vág, in the territory around the present village of Pobedim.  Obviously, at that time, the Kingdom of the Quadi was divided into two parts and, between AD. 51 and 89, the capital city of the Western Quads was located here, which is identified as the Quad city of Arsicua.

This is north of the Hungarian plain. Wiki says that Trajan formed Pannonia Superior and Pannonia Inferior in 103AD from the old province of Pannonia. I cannot work out how close these settlements are to Pannonia in 51-89.

The authors views have been challenged (hence the paper) but reading on he makes a good case, particularly where Marcus Aurelius' campaign in the region is concerned in 177 and 180.

If this is correct then there would be plenty of room to gallop around in the 1stC AD.
Perhaps when, in 69AD, the Quadi and Iazyges served side by side as mercenaries for Vespasian (Tacitus) and in 92AD when they turn out again together they could have been using the same tactics....

This pdf has them at Nitra in the 1st C AD as well

http://www.nitra.eu/media/Archeologicke%20pamiatky%20-%20AJ.pdf

In the 1st century, they formed a vassal state between the Rivers Morava and Váh, Kingdom of Vannius, and towards the end of the 1st century, the Quadi colonized Upper Nitra, lower part of Upper Hron and Ipeľ River region up to Danube.

[Duncan Head]

"Moreover, Tacitus associated the Buri with the Marcomanni and Quadi and says that they were Suebic in language and culture, thus they wore the nodus" - the "Suebian knot". So Tacitus sees the Quadi as conventionally Suebic, German, in cuture in the second half of the C1 AD.

"Commodus required the Marcomanni and Quadi by treaty not to attack the Buri and Iazyges." If it was necessary to require this, it confirms my earlier suggestion that the Quadi were still more closely associated with the Marcomanni than the Iazyges in the late 2nd century.

(Both sentences from Jon Coulston's thesis at https://theses.ncl.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/10443/174/1/coulston88v1.pdf)

Dio 72.8 says:

So Marcus subdued the Marcomani and the Iazyges after many hard struggles and dangers. A great war against the people called the Quadi also fell to his lot and it was his good fortune to win an unexpected victory, or rather it was vouchsafed him by Heaven. For when the Romans were in peril in the course of the battle, the divine power saved them in a most unexpected manner. The Quadi had surrounded them at a spot favourable for their purpose and the Romans were fighting valiantly with their shields locked together; then the barbarians ceased fighting, expecting to capture them easily as the result of the heat and their thirst. So they posted guards all about and hemmed them in to prevent their getting water anywhere; for the barbarians were far superior in numbers. The Romans, accordingly, were in a terrible plight from fatigue, wounds, the heat of the sun, and thirst, and so could neither fight nor retreat, but were standing and the line and at their several posts, scorched by the heat, when suddenly many clouds gathered and a mighty rain, not without divine interposition, burst upon them. Indeed, there is a story to the effect that Arnuphis, an Egyptian magician, who was a companion of Marcus, had invoked by means of enchantments various deities and in particular Mercury, the god of the air, and by this means attracted the rain.

So the barbarian enemy at the "rain miracle" are the Quadi; but they are shown, in the depiction of this scene on Marcus' column, as conventional Germans: look at the dead in http://www.livius.org/pictures/italy/rome/column-of-marcus-aurelius/the-rain-miracle/

Note also that the Iazyges supply "8,000 cavalry" to the Roman army (Dio 72.16) but when Commodus subjugates the Quadi, the contribution demanded is "soldiers ... 13,000 from the Quadi and a smaller number from the Marcomanni" (Dio 73.2) which isn't at all decisive but suggests that the Quadi military system is closer to the Marcomannic than the Sarmatian.

[rodge]

Interesting.
I was aware of the treaty conditions of Commodus which is somewhat in opposition to the earlier treaty imposed by his father in 170 where alliance with the Iazyges was forbidden.

If you look at this woodcut of the same rain miracle panel on the column you can see things a bit more clearly

http://www.usask.ca/antiquities/our-collection-/roman/sculpture/rain-miracle-scene-from-the-column-of-marcus-aurelius/index.php

there are 3 dead Quadi and 2 horses
This could be interpreted as cavalry, well 2/3rds of them.
However Sarmaticized cavalry is unlikely judging by the equipment.

It is looking more like the Sarmaticized Quadi are 3rdC AD to me.

[valentinianvictor]

Whilst the Quadi did indeed join the Sarmatians in raiding over the frontier in AD374, it is interesting to note that both of those tribes sent separate deputations to Valentinian to sue for peace, weeks apart from each other, and that Valentinian made peace with the Sarmatians first. This indicates to me that whilst those two tribes may have  had cordial relations they were very separate entities.

[rodge]

Indeed, but it is also interesting that the incident that provokes the attack on Pannonia is the treacherous murder of the Quadi king Gabinius by the son of the magister armorum per Illyricum. The Sarmatians and the Quadi, although separate entities, must have had a strong alliance as no slight (that I can find in Ammianus) is made against the Sarmatians at this time, yet together they campaign in Pannonia.
As you point out however the Sarmatians were quick to throw themselves on the mercy of Valentinian when he turned up and they even deny that they took part in the campaign (Ammianus XXX.V.I).

[rodge]

Michael Kerr over on RAT brought the 171AD Quadi treaty to my attention.

The right to attend the markets, however, was not granted to them, for fear that the Iazyges and the Marcomani, whom they had sworn not to receive nor to allow to pass through their country, should mingle with them, and passing themselves off for Quadi, should reconnoitre the Roman positions and purchase provisions.
Dio, LXXII.II.

Michael says 'whether that means the Iazyges adopted German dress or the Quadi adopted Iazyges steppe clothing is hard to say. It would probably been hard to distinguish between both groups after a few hundred years of close proximity.'

[Andreas Johansson]

I don't see why it implies either. Even if Quadi and Iazyges ordinarily dressed differently, any individual ... whatever the singular of Iazyges is bent on passing himself off of as a Quadus could surely find the requisite garments without too much trouble if travelling through the Quadic country.

If one accepts Kerr's assumption, however, it would seem to follow that not only Quadi and Iazyges but also the Marcomanni dressed the same, which may tip the scales of probability towards Germanic clothing.

[rodge]

Yes, it proves little bar that the Romans were worried about another Quadi/Marcomanni/Iazyges axis developing.
It adds a little more detail to the overall picture.