Possible Goth helmet on Ebay

[Duncan Head]

There are starting to be enough of these helmets for them to be a widespread type or at least sub type of spangenhelm.

Of course while they have a similar general appearance, low and plain and with any cheekpieces lost, structurally there are at least two types: Sveti Vid is a "bandhelm", two half-skulls with  a single fore-and-aft band joining them, but Shorwell has four skull segments, the fore-and-aft band and two halves of a lateral band. Both styles are closer to Sasanian-Roman ridge helmets than to "true" spangenhelme, though their plainness rather detracts visually from that.

The "Viking" helmet could either be the same as Shorwell or could be a third structural type with two complete bands crossing each other.

[Duncan Head]

Today, the latest issue of Medieval Warfare magazine (III/3) arrived. The theme is the rise of the Seljuqs and decline of the Byzantines, and the cover illustration is a painting of a couple of Byzantine soldiers of the 1070s. What I didn't notice from the painting itself, until I read the accompanying article and saw a photo, was that one of the guardsmen is wearing a helmet of the same type we have been discussing. The photograph shows the source, an iron helmet from the Haluk Perk museum in Istanbul, which is dated (according to Raffaele D'Amato - he does not say explicitly if this is the museum's dating) to the eleventh century. And it's virtually identical to the eBay helmet that started this thread off, or the Sveti Vid helmets. Dr D'Amato says this "shows that  the tradition of the banded and segmented helmet of Late Roman times was still strong in Byzantium", but I wonder if it just shows a doubtful dating: the resemblance seems too close to be down to a continuance in style five centuries later.

(The helmet on p29, from the same museum, is a rather interesting piece as well!)

[Erpingham]

I find it interesting that he has chosen to represent it as having quilted cheekguards of "feather and leather".  When I looked at the other examples, it wasn't clear whether they had had cheekpieces or not.  He has clearly gone for an intermediate view of a perishable material, rather than metal.  Also he shows the helmet (which is iron) with a yellow metal colouring - I wonder what he intends by that as it isn't referenced in the commentary?

[Duncan Head]

I'd assumed gilding, since he's supposed to be a guardsman; but as you say, not mentioned.

[aligern]

Raffiaele does  take a very literalist interpretation of source illustrations. This can be both challenging and illuminating. In this case I would expect to see a source somewhere. The helmet itself is so basic that it makes a typological approach a bit difficult.

On another of Raffaele's reconstructions, I was fascinated by his recreation of the Adamklissi metopes Roman gear. I had always rather assumed that the legionaries are wearing standard helmets with deep neck guards and cross reinforcing pieces. He shows them as much more like the Syrian helmets that auxiliary archers wear on Trajan's column with cloth backed scale neck coverings. most interesting.
Roy

[Duncan Head]

The helmet itself is so basic that it makes a typological approach a bit difficult.

It is pretty basic, but the resemblance not just in basic construction but in proportions - skull shape, depth of the browband, etc - is so similar between the Haluk Perk example and the supposedly earlier ones that I was very surprised by the presumed chronology.

[andrew881runner]

so you are telling me that I can simply take some rusted piece of iron from my garden, give it a helm look, and sell it on eBay for 6500 dollars? interesting. How do you know it is not counterfeited?

[Patrick Waterson]

The challenging part is to 'give it a helm look', which would require shaping and quite possibly reforging in a smith's furnace.  Metallurgical testing and analysis also help to separate genuine ancient metalwork from modern hopefuls who use mass-production steels.  This need not be complicated or expensive: a few metal shavings and a few vials of different acids tell one all one needs to know.

More expensively, grinding the metal flat and polishing it allows it to be etched for the purposes of metallography, which reveals the molecular structure.  If one does not wish to damage the item in any way, crystallography can be used to determine the metal's composition and structure, but the price tag of this method is beyond the means of the casual collector.

[andrew881runner]

The challenging part is to 'give it a helm look', which would require shaping and quite possibly reforging in a smith's furnace.  Metallurgical testing and analysis also help to separate genuine ancient metalwork from modern hopefuls who use mass-production steels.  This need not be complicated or expensive: a few metal shavings and a few vials of different acids tell one all one needs to know.

More expensively, grinding the metal flat and polishing it allows it to be etched for the purposes of metallography, which reveals the molecular structure.  If one does not wish to damage the item in any way, crystallography can be used to determine the metal's composition and structure, but the price tag of this method is beyond the means of the casual collector.

how can you do this if you buy on eBay? once you paid, you get whatever the seller will give to you.

[Erpingham]

how can you do this if you buy on eBay? once you paid, you get whatever the seller will give to you.

True, but you would have the protection e-bay gives against fraudulent selling.  Given the trade in illegal antiquities, I'd be very wary of making such a purchase, even if genuine (not that I have the money).

[andrew881runner]

how can you do this if you buy on eBay? once you paid, you get whatever the seller will give to you.

True, but you would have the protection e-bay gives against fraudulent selling.  Given the trade in illegal antiquities, I'd be very wary of making such a purchase, even if genuine (not that I have the money).

for my experience, eBay protection does not exist, simply if you pay by PayPal you can ask a chargeback (maybe fraudulent).