In the WRG Army Lists Book 1 (1981), the Armenian army (list 44) can have Iberian allies in the form of heavy (or extra heavy) lancers plus infantry with long spears.
In the DBM Army Lists Book 2 (1993), the Early Armenian army (list 27) can also have very similarly described Iberian troops.
In the DBMM Army Lists Book 2 (2016), the Early Armenian and Gordyene army list (list 28), they appear to now be known as Hiberians.
Is there any reason why they are now not dropping their "H"s?
Dunno why it changed, perhaps to differentiate the Caucasian lot from the Spanish ones, but both spellings are correct Latin.
Thanks Duncan. I assumed it wasn't a typo.
That particular army list does seem to have changed quite a bit from earlier versions.
Should the Armenian Albanians also become "Halbanians" to differentiate them from the inhabitants of where Albania - the state - is?
I note that in the DBMM lists they've acquired some form of very heavy cavalry which wasn't present in earlier versions. The few words on them suggests they might be heavily armoured but just with javelins / light spears. Does anyone know anymore than this?
Quote from: dwkay57 on March 02, 2021, 08:53:50 AM
Should the Armenian Albanians also become "Halbanians" to differentiate them from the inhabitants of where Albania - the state - is?
Not the way Latin works, I fear.
QuoteI note that in the DBMM lists they've acquired some form of very heavy cavalry which wasn't present in earlier versions. The few words on them suggests they might be heavily armoured but just with javelins / light spears. Does anyone know anymore than this?
Briefly - Caucasian Albanian cataphracts are mentioned by Strabo. The javelin thing is from an account of an Albanian prince throwing a javelin, I think from Plutarch's
Pompey. Cataphract + javelin = Kn(Inferior), like late Achaemenid armoured-horse cavalry - that was the theory. The logic is weak, partly because we don't know that said prince was fighting as a cataphract at the time.
Albanians and (H)iberians remain neglected in army list terms, which is unfortunate since they were interesting and significant minor powers for several centuries.
Aspiring Albanians rise to be Hiberians.
Roy
Given the inconsistent writing of H in Late Latin, a variant Halbania would have been unsurprising, but it doesn't seem to be attested.
Just for fun, note that in Medieval Latin, "Albania" can also mean Scotland (apparently because the inhabitants of Alba are Albani, and such obviously live in Albania).
Quote from: Duncan Head on March 02, 2021, 10:39:12 AM
Quote from: dwkay57 on March 02, 2021, 08:53:50 AM
QuoteI note that in the DBMM lists they've acquired some form of very heavy cavalry which wasn't present in earlier versions. The few words on them suggests they might be heavily armoured but just with javelins / light spears. Does anyone know anymore than this?
Briefly - Caucasian Albanian cataphracts are mentioned by Strabo. The javelin thing is from an account of an Albanian prince throwing a javelin, I think from Plutarch's Pompey. Cataphract + javelin = Kn(Inferior), like late Achaemenid armoured-horse cavalry - that was the theory. The logic is weak, partly because we don't know that said prince was fighting as a cataphract at the time.
Albanians and (H)iberians remain neglected in army list terms, which is unfortunate since they were interesting and significant minor powers for several centuries.
(Albanians) He found them drawn up on the river Abas, sixty thousand foot and twelve thousand horse, but wretchedly armed, and clad for the most part in the skins of wild beasts. They were led by a brother of the king, named Cosis, 3 who as soon as the fighting was at close quarters, rushed upon Pompey himself and smote him with a javelin on the fold of his breastplate; but Pompey ran him through the body and killed him. Plut. Pomp. 35
(Albanians)
But still they fight both on foot and on horseback, both in light armour (= psiloi) and in full armour (kataphraktoi), like the Armenians. (Strabo 11.4.4)
They send forth a greater army than that of the Iberians; for they equip sixty thousand infantry and twenty‑two thousand8 horsemen, the number with which they risked their all against Pompey. Against outsiders the nomads join with the Albanians in war, just as they do with the Iberians, and for the same reasons; and besides, they often attack the people, and consequently prevent them from farming. The Albanians use javelins and bows; and they wear breastplates (thorakes) and large oblong shields, and helmets made of the skins of wild animals, similar to those worn by the Iberians. (Strabo XI 4.5)
(Iberians)
Now the plain of the Iberians is inhabited by people who are rather inclined to farming and to peace, and they dress after both the Armenian and the Median fashion; but the major, or warlike, portion, occupy the mountainous territory, living like the Scythians and the Sarmatians, of whom they are both neighbours and kinsmen; however, they engage also in farming. And they assemble many tens of thousands, both from their own people and from the Scythians and Sarmatians, whenever anything alarming occurs. (Strabo XI 3.3)
There were Iberian 'longchophoroi' with Tigranes against Lucullus.
Also see the http://soa.org.uk/sm/index.php?topic=4325.msg55900#msg55900 discussion of a possible (H)iberian cavalryman.
I sure there was a discussion either here or another place about excavations showing body armour but a dearth of helmets, the implication being that they really were wearing non-metallic headgear.
I wonder if the 'skins of wild beasts' is shaggy caveman chic or closer to the various types of rawhide etc. armour of the Skythians (especially bearing in mind the noted links to the steppe dwellers).
Quote from: Andreas Johansson on March 02, 2021, 11:47:47 AM
Given the inconsistent writing of H in Late Latin, a variant Halbania would have been unsurprising, but it doesn't seem to be attested.
Just for fun, note that in Medieval Latin, "Albania" can also mean Scotland (apparently because the inhabitants of Alba are Albani, and such obviously live in Albania).
Didn't Scotland tend to be Alba, which apparently is Gaelic
Thanks guys, this is interesting.
A field army of 70k plus seems a bit high for the (H)albanians as this would push their overall population towards 1/3 million in an area about the size of Wales. That seems high to me. The Penguin Atlas(es) of population history suggest there might have been about 1 million across the whole of that region by 200AD.
I was going to add a few hundred light (H)albanian cavalry to my Armenian army but sounds as if I may need to up it slightly and include some heavier types. If as discussed elsewhere, that when Romans said kataphractoi they really meant what we used to know as HC then I might be able to cobble something suitable from some left over figures.
Quote from: dwkay57 on March 02, 2021, 05:05:32 PM
I was going to add a few hundred light (H)albanian cavalry to my Armenian army but sounds as if I may need to up it slightly and include some heavier types. If as discussed elsewhere, that when Romans said kataphractoi they really meant what we used to know as HC then I might be able to cobble something suitable from some left over figures.
It does say like the Armenians, I think it is in Plutarch's Antony that he says the Armenians are like the Parthian
I forgot there is an even better confirmation for Albanian armoured horses - it is in Strabo's bit on Armenia
"Artavasdes, at the time when he invaded Media with Antony, showed him, apart from the rest of the cavalry, six thousand horses drawn up in battle array in full armour. Not only the Medes and the Armenians pride themselves upon this kind of cavalry, but also the Albanians, for they too use horses in full armour." Str 11.14.9
Ἀρταουάσδης δὲ Ἀντωνίῳ χωρὶς τῆς ἄλλης ἱππείας αὐτὴν τὴν κατάφρακτον ἑξακισχιλίαν ἵππον ἐκτάξας ἐπέδειξεν, ἡνίκα εἰς τὴν Μηδίαν ἐνέβαλε σὺν αὐτῷ. ταύτης δὲ τῆς ἱππείας οὐ Μῆδοι μόνοι καὶ Ἀρμένιοι ζηλωταὶ γεγόνασιν, ἀλλὰ καὶ Ἀλβανοί: καὶ γὰρ ἐκεῖνοι καταφράκτοις χρῶνται. - so horses are specifically mentioned, not a translator's addition.
Thanks Peter - of course that does mean I'll have to invest in some new figures....
Quote from: Duncan Head on March 02, 2021, 10:39:12 AM
Albanians and (H)iberians remain neglected in army list terms, which is unfortunate since they were interesting and significant minor powers for several centuries.
What should Hiberian and Caucasian Albanian army lists look like?
Quote from: Andreas Johansson on March 03, 2021, 12:24:26 PM
Quote from: Duncan Head on March 02, 2021, 10:39:12 AM
Albanians and (H)iberians remain neglected in army list terms, which is unfortunate since they were interesting and significant minor powers for several centuries.
What should Hiberian and Caucasian Albanian army lists look like?
Oh come on, that's asking for a whole article! There was one on Iberians in a back issue, long time ago, by Bernd Lehnhoff. And I have the attached, taken from a document I wrote in 1995 but never went further with.
Quote from: dwkay57 on March 03, 2021, 08:58:55 AM
Thanks Peter - of course that does mean I'll have to invest in some new figures....
For what very little it is worth, I use some Baccus Late Achaemenid armoured cavalry for Albanian "cataphracts":
1) the dodgy logic noted by Duncan re "horse armour" and "javelin";
2) for a slightly backward, less wealthy region, region, less extensive horse armour than later became fashionable / possible, with a huge hand wave of the gap of three to five centuries between the Achaemenid period and my period of interest for the Albanians.
3) the excuse to use a different and distinctive figure;
4) they are only 6mm, so who cares.
Likewise I use some Hellenistic xystophoroi for Iberian heavies, same arguments apply.
Quote from: DBS on March 03, 2021, 05:12:13 PMLikewise I use some Hellenistic xystophoroi for Iberian heavies, same arguments apply.
For Iberian lancers, I would recommend looking at Figure 92 in
Iberia and Rome (http://dspace.nplg.gov.ge/bitstream/1234/31283/1/Iberia_And_Rome.pdf). There's also bits of scale armour in some of the other plates.
Quote from: Swampster on March 02, 2021, 11:50:22 AMI sure there was a discussion either here or another place about excavations showing body armour but a dearth of helmets, the implication being that they really were wearing non-metallic headgear.
That
might be a discussion of the
Iberia and Rome paper linked in my previous post; there are quite a few bits of scale armour reported from the Iberian site at Dedoplis Gora, but no helmets.
Quote from: Duncan Head on March 03, 2021, 05:30:47 PM
Quote from: Swampster on March 02, 2021, 11:50:22 AMI sure there was a discussion either here or another place about excavations showing body armour but a dearth of helmets, the implication being that they really were wearing non-metallic headgear.
That might be a discussion of the Iberia and Rome paper linked in my previous post; there are quite a few bits of scale armour reported from the Iberian site at Dedoplis Gora, but no helmets.
Yes, I think that is it.
"We are forced to literally believe Strabo's information that the Iberians, just like the Albanians,
used helmets made of animals' skin."
Quote from: Duncan Head on March 03, 2021, 05:27:19 PM
Quote from: DBS on March 03, 2021, 05:12:13 PMLikewise I use some Hellenistic xystophoroi for Iberian heavies, same arguments apply.
For Iberian lancers, I would recommend looking at Figure 92 in Iberia and Rome (http://dspace.nplg.gov.ge/bitstream/1234/31283/1/Iberia_And_Rome.pdf). There's also bits of scale armour in some of the other plates.
Though the Iberian 'lancers' of Plutarch are longchophoroi, which usually seem to be foot. There are times where it is used for cavalry though (Diodorus does, I think), and the context of the Iberians fighting alongside Mardian horse archers could suit lighter foot or cavalry.
Plutarch says Tigranes relied on the Mardians and the Iberian lancers the most of his mercenaries. The MM list makes the foot superior Auxilia; though I don't know how much is down to this description of reliability and how much is an equipment based one of 'thureos =AxS.
Quote from: Duncan Head on March 03, 2021, 05:27:19 PM
Quote from: DBS on March 03, 2021, 05:12:13 PMLikewise I use some Hellenistic xystophoroi for Iberian heavies, same arguments apply.
For Iberian lancers, I would recommend looking at Figure 92 in Iberia and Rome (http://dspace.nplg.gov.ge/bitstream/1234/31283/1/Iberia_And_Rome.pdf). There's also bits of scale armour in some of the other plates.
Thank you - legs look very Iranian... certainly seems a good match for the Kn(F) or similar thinking.
Quote from: Swampster on March 03, 2021, 06:09:50 PMThough the Iberian 'lancers' of Plutarch are longchophoroi, which usually seem to be foot.
Well yes, but I meant the cavalry lancers - since David was talking about using xystophoroi. The Sarmatian parallel that Strabo draws, plus the Dedoplis Gora figure mentioned, make kontos-using lancers look pretty likely. Wasn't thinking about the longchophoroi at all.
QuotePlutarch says Tigranes relied on the Mardians and the Iberian lancers the most of his mercenaries. The MM list makes the foot superior Auxilia; though I don't know how much is down to this description of reliability and how much is an equipment based one of 'thureos =AxS.
From my vague memory of the discussion, it was the Plutarch quote that did it. I'm not sure anyone connected Strabo's Albanian thureoi with the Iberians at that stage.
The only representations of Iberian infantry I know of have smallish cane or wicker-looking shields (https://b.radikal.ru/b26/2102/79/8da3b20e5d84t.jpg)
Quote from: Duncan Head on March 03, 2021, 06:50:39 PM
The only representations of Iberian infantry I know of have smallish cane or wicker-looking shields (https://b.radikal.ru/b26/2102/79/8da3b20e5d84t.jpg)
Interesting. The figures I first used for Iberians were some of Xth legions Persians carrying a small cane shield. Looks like I accidentally may have hit the right look with the shield (though I think they had a Phrygian cap rather than whatever that is. I hope it is a boars' tusk helmet :) ) .
Quote from: Duncan Head on March 03, 2021, 12:43:37 PM
Quote from: Andreas Johansson on March 03, 2021, 12:24:26 PM
Quote from: Duncan Head on March 02, 2021, 10:39:12 AM
Albanians and (H)iberians remain neglected in army list terms, which is unfortunate since they were interesting and significant minor powers for several centuries.
What should Hiberian and Caucasian Albanian army lists look like?
Oh come on, that's asking for a whole article! There was one on Iberians in a back issue, long time ago, by Bernd Lehnhoff. And I have the attached, taken from a document I wrote in 1995 but never went further with.
The question as intended could have been answered more impressionistically than by providing actual lists. I'm sure, though, that Justin would love an article on wargaming Hiberia and Albania ;)
But thank you, those DBM lists were more than I was hoping for :)
Quote from: Swampster on March 03, 2021, 07:08:14 PM(though I think they had a Phrygian cap rather than whatever that is. I hope it is a boars' tusk helmet :) ) .
It might be "helmets made of the skins of wild animals, similar to those worn by the Iberians". Maybe padded or quilted leather? Or just an artistic impression of a hairstyle?
I would have said hairstyle, except for the apparent fillets/rims and nasal guards...
And it all started with such a simple question....
Thanks for all the responses, especially Duncan.
As David says at 6mm you can get away with quite a bit. My (H)Iberian cavalry are the Baccus Sarmatian on unarmoured horse with the bow case filed down a bit. My (H)Albanian cavalry were going to look more Celtic (one post mentioned an oval shield) and armed with javelins, but if they were on armoured horses I might have to buy some more Parthians (some of whom have leggings as opposed to armoured trousers) and potentially cut their spears down and glue on shields and paint their helmets a non-metallic colour.
PS. Isn't knights (inferior) a hollywood casting request?
Quote from: dwkay57 on March 04, 2021, 09:56:18 AM
My (H)Albanian cavalry were going to look more Celtic (one post mentioned an oval shield) and armed with javelins, but if they were on armoured horses I might have to buy some more Parthians (some of whom have leggings as opposed to armoured trousers) and potentially cut their spears down and glue on shields and paint their helmets a non-metallic colour.
PS. Isn't knights (inferior) a hollywood casting request?
I think the oval shield on the cavalry fight plaque is the enemy - Roman perhaps.
Quote from: Swampster on March 04, 2021, 10:33:00 AM
Quote from: dwkay57 on March 04, 2021, 09:56:18 AM
My (H)Albanian cavalry were going to look more Celtic (one post mentioned an oval shield) and armed with javelins, but if they were on armoured horses I might have to buy some more Parthians (some of whom have leggings as opposed to armoured trousers) and potentially cut their spears down and glue on shields and paint their helmets a non-metallic colour.
PS. Isn't knights (inferior) a hollywood casting request?
I think the oval shield on the cavalry fight plaque is the enemy - Roman perhaps.
The author of the
Iberia and Rome book certainly thought that the shielded cavalryman was a Roman - but then, they also thought that the victorious lancer was a Parthian, not an Iberian. I am inclined to think that the lancer is probably Iberian; in which case the oval-shielded enemy _might_ be an Albanian....
Quote from: Duncan Head on March 03, 2021, 05:27:19 PM
Quote from: DBS on March 03, 2021, 05:12:13 PMLikewise I use some Hellenistic xystophoroi for Iberian heavies, same arguments apply.
For Iberian lancers, I would recommend looking at Figure 92 in Iberia and Rome (http://dspace.nplg.gov.ge/bitstream/1234/31283/1/Iberia_And_Rome.pdf). There's also bits of scale armour in some of the other plates.
That figure reminds me of the Irregular Miniatures Bactrian Greek cavalry
Quote from: Duncan Head on March 04, 2021, 11:51:00 AM
The author of the Iberia and Rome book certainly thought that the shielded cavalryman was a Roman - but then, they also thought that the victorious lancer was a Parthian, not an Iberian. I am inclined to think that the lancer is probably Iberian; in which case the oval-shielded enemy _might_ be an Albanian....
That would be entirely logical, though one thought occurred to me overnight, that is not so much a challenge to your reasonable supposition, more a challenge to potentially lazy thinking or assumptions by the likes of myself.
The Iberians are on the west of the Caucasus region, Albanians on the east. The chap with the kontos in the plaque looks a tad Iranian, at least in his legwear. The chap on the right has a spined shield. Now, the lazy thinking would be that the chaps to the west, on the coast of the Black Sea, and Asia Minor not that far away, are in the Hellenistic orbit, even if very rustic and peripheral, so if anyone in the Caucasus was likely to be sporting a spined shield, might it not be the Iberians? Equally, the Albanians squeezed up against the Caspian, with easiest communications lying to their south into Media, might be a bit more Iranian... yet, the lancer is the victorious combatant, so for an Iberian possession, as Duncan says, seems most likely to be the Iberian. I do not know enough about Armenian dress during this period - maybe they were more Parthianised than I imagine, having an Arsacid dynasty after all, and therefore a transmitter of Iranian styles to their northern Iberian neighbours?
I suppose the other option is that the plaque shows neither Iberian or Albanian, but is an external gifted artwork from the Parthians or similar.
Quote from: DBS on March 05, 2021, 01:51:11 PMNow, the lazy thinking would be that the chaps to the west, on the coast of the Black Sea, and Asia Minor not that far away, are in the Hellenistic orbit, even if very rustic and peripheral, so if anyone in the Caucasus was likely to be sporting a spined shield, might it not be the Iberians? Equally, the Albanians squeezed up against the Caspian, with easiest communications lying to their south into Media, might be a bit more Iranian... yet, the lancer is the victorious combatant, so for an Iberian possession, as Duncan says, seems most likely to be the Iberian. I do not know enough about Armenian dress during this period - maybe they were more Parthianised than I imagine, having an Arsacid dynasty after all, and therefore a transmitter of Iranian styles to their northern Iberian neighbours?
The Iberians aren't on the coast of the Black Sea at this period - the coast is Colchis, which is still a separate (albeit related) state. In general, the Iberians are noted as wearing Iranian dress rather than being Hellenised, as in the Strabo passage Peter quoted earlier - the plainsmen dressed like Medes and Armenians, the highlanders living like Scythians and Sarmatians. The lancer looks reasonably Sarmatianising to me. As for the spined shield, we do have explicit testimony that the Albanians used the thureos, which was traditionally spined in both Celtic and Hellenistic usage, so that's exactly what I would suggest. And their Median neighbours did use spined thureoi as well, judging from the Zahhak Castle figure (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zahhak_Castle).
Thank you - feeling very stupid as Strabo was my starting point on thinking about these armies years ago... oh dear, just blame it on dwindling mental faculties with advancing age!
Rummaging through my pile of small lead, whilst looking for some suitable Emesa cavalry figures (but that is a different thread), I came across some Rapier shielded Persian cavalry. The moulding of the saddle blanket in conjunction with some heavy paintwork could mimic horse armour at that small scale and I am planning on using these to form the (H)Albanian Kn(I) or EHC with javelin types as allies for my Armenians. I'll back them up with some left over Celtic/German cavalry as the Irr cv(o) or MC and throw in a few saka horse archers with their pixies hats cut down for the LH(f) or LC with bow. I'll probably have to order some of the Baccus Dacian infantry for the foot though.