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I expect the 'mass of indifferent types at the back to make up numbers' approach is quite common in military history, and in fact the 'thin red line' may be the exception, and a particular sign of quality. This is Phil Sabin's argument in LB, that lower quality forces tended to mass deep, so that numerically large armies didn't necessarily have greater frontage than small high quality ones.

Quote(Rich - do you have a book out on the topic. You might have mentioned it...)

Yeah I know, and honestly I hate self-promotion. Quite how some books become well known (example, Myke Cole's Legion versus Phalanx, with 244 ratings on Amazon, others though niche rate surprisingly highly (example, author unspecified, The Akkadian Empire: A Captivating Guide..., 21 ratings on Amazon), and others pass completely under the radar (example, Richard Taylor, The Greek Hoplite Phalanx, 0 ratings on Amazon) is a mystery to me (and also apparently to Pen & Sword) (not such a mystery in Myke Cole's case of course as he's a Personality, almost a Celebrity, as well as writing well).

Embittered rant over. I may continue to slip in a mention of my book from time to time. Sorry!

One of the differences with the Scots is that the Scots are a fairly typical medieval host, with a range of men of various means turning up with the weapons they owned/ were obliged to have.  Helots were a servile population who weren't allowed arms but could be armed in some way by the state.  Hence my question earlier - what would they be given?  They certainly wouldn't have even the training of a city militia hoplite, let alone a Spartan. 

The thin line of hoplites with a mob of helots behind is OK in theory but how many decent ranks do you need?  A minimum of two?  That gives you 14 ranks of men who the authors suggest are armed with javelins and stones.  Most couldn't play an active role if they wanted to. 

The demi-brigade idea - with clumps of hoplites backed up by bigger separate masses of helots - is worth considering but helot only units would be very vulnerable to Persian shooting and they don't really have much motivation to take the punishment.

Or we might say there were helots with different roles, perhaps the military servant helots formed the "traditional" Archaic phalanx light component and a load of additional helots weren't actually in the fighting line at all.

As Richard has already said, we don't have a lot of evidence of what really went on.  But it is fair to say that the abnormally high number of helots and what role they played is highlighted as a question by this paper, as is the idea we shouldn't assumed we are dealing with something as fully worked out as the later hoplite phalanx.

One interesting aspect that the authors mention, but not in detail, is Plato's dialogue Laches.  Sean Manning, commented on this paper, quoted it.  The key line (Socrates to Laches) is

Indeed they say that when the Spartans, at Plataea, came across the men with wicker shields (hoi gerrophoroi), they were not willing to remain in position and do battle with them, so they fled, but once the Persian ranks had broken, they turned around and fought, just as horsemen do, and so won the battle of Plataea.

So the Athenians preserved a tradition of a Spartan feigned flight.  Now, it's a late source and may not be true but it does raise a question about the capabilities of a trained phalanx, other than drill movements and measured treads. 

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Hence my question earlier - what would they be given?

I refer you to my answer earlier - we don't know!

However, in the later period (Peloponnesian War), helots did apparently serve as hoplites - eg some with Brasidas' expedition, and some at First Mantinea (if that is what the Neodamodeis are), so it was not unthinkable (at least then) for Spartans to arm helots as hoplites (quite how this worked in practice - state-provided arms? masters arming their own? - we don't know). I doubt this is what happened with the helots at Plataea because there are so many of them - these later examples seem to be specially selected, modestly sized bodies, not a mass levy, and I don't suppose Sparta could run to 30,000 extra sets of hoplite equipment. Plus Spartans were so petrified of the helots that I don't believe they would ever want to arm them so well.

Where we have any hint at all of what helots or similar bodies of hangers-on were armed with, they are psiloi, or gymnetes, or sometimes peltasts - in all cases unarmoured, with either no shield or a small light shield, and javelins or stones (we can rule out bows as the Spartans at Plataea had to ask the Athenians for the loan of their archers, the only Greek archers present).

Bear in mind also that there was no uniform equipment even for Spartans (Spartiates and Perioikoi). They, like a medieval host, turned up with the weapons they owned, which (famously in the case of Spartans) might not be very much at all. The only absolutely required items were a shield (a proper aspis) and a spear. Spartans might add a pilos, which might still have been as originally a felt hat, not a helmet. Any armour above that was optional and on the basis of personal preference and means. So even a 'pure' phalanx would already be a mixed lot, perhaps with 'men of bronze' in the first rank or two shading off to unarmoured shield and spear men in the back ranks. They may also have been mixed as to class, if Spartiates and Perioikoi did serve together in the same units, which is unclear. So adding a crowd of psiloi to the back of that to shout and lob stuff and generally provide encouragement is not unthinkable, IMO. I don't think the hoplite element need have been especially shallow - eight ranks (for the sake of argument) of hoplites backed up by many more of psiloi seems plausible.

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Or we might say there were helots with different roles, perhaps the military servant helots formed the "traditional" Archaic phalanx light component and a load of additional helots weren't actually in the fighting line at all.

Yes that's possible too. I don't really have a preferred version.

The 'fighting like horsemen' bit is another of the mysteries of Plataea. A similar story is told of Thermopylae. It's hard to see how this works with a traditional close order eight (or so) deep phalanx. It's even harder to see how it works with a phalanx with a mass of helots behind it. Should we see it as a formal drill manoeuvre in which, following a strict drill, a formed phalanx moves retrograde in face of the enemy? (cf. Chaeronea, in the traditional interpretation). Or should we see it as something more informal, as a loosely formed body of men fighting in a more 'dynamic stand-off' sort of way, ebbing and flowing? That's how I'd be inclined to read it. It's a perplexing business, and a discuss it a little bit in MY BLOODY BOOK!!! Yes I do!!!!!!

Quote from: Tim on May 26, 2022, 06:05:02 AM


The French Revolution Demi-Brigades consisting of very large numbers of conscripts brigaded with regular line units.

I do wonder if the helots in such large numbers are operating in a similar way to these examples. Untrained/inexperienced men called up en masse. Armoured/trained men at the front, rear ranks helots, either in the same formation or brigaded together - "don't be scared, you are with those big brave Spartiates. Watch them they know what to do. Stick close and they will look after you".

(Rich - do you have a book out on the topic. You might have mentioned it...)

Slave phalanxes were not unknown, fielded by at least Mithridates and the Achaeans, and the Spartans had their Neodamodeis. Whether all were freed before fighting or fought for their freedom may have varied. The Romans raised legion from slaves in the 2nd Punic war

Quote from: RichT on May 26, 2022, 11:32:33 AM
It's a perplexing business, and a discuss it a little bit in MY BLOODY BOOK!!! Yes I do!!!!!!

I wish I could afford your bloody book. I really do. 

Well it's £24 on P&S, or £18.75 on Amazon, hardback (about the price of ten toy soldiers, or five cavalry) (no doubt postage, customs etc will up that), or the Kindle edition (if you happen to have a Kindle) is £4.79 (about the price of a post-game pint). I don't know what financial position anyone is in of course - I'm grateful if any of their money comes my way.

Ooh I see Hoplites now has a rating and review on Amazon - thank you Lector! Much appreciated. "The squeaky wheel gets the grease."

Sorry, I'm hijacking this thread, which was supposed to be about Plataea...

Quote from: Jim Webster on May 26, 2022, 12:26:26 PM

Quote from: Tim on May 26, 2022, 06:05:02 AM


The French Revolution Demi-Brigades consisting of very large numbers of conscripts brigaded with regular line units.

I do wonder if the helots in such large numbers are operating in a similar way to these examples. Untrained/inexperienced men called up en masse. Armoured/trained men at the front, rear ranks helots, either in the same formation or brigaded together - "don't be scared, you are with those big brave Spartiates. Watch them they know what to do. Stick close and they will look after you".

(Rich - do you have a book out on the topic. You might have mentioned it...)

Slave phalanxes were not unknown, fielded by at least Mithridates and the Achaeans, and the Spartans had their Neodamodeis. Whether all were freed before fighting or fought for their freedom may have varied. The Romans raised legion from slaves in the 2nd Punic war

I'd rather formed the view that Mithridates slave phalanx was formed of men who had been recently enslaved and were liberated by him in his radical democrat phase rather than those born into it.  Who ever they were the fought hard enough.

Also I'd note it took(out of our period) six weeks to train a light pike man and anything between 6 months and a couple of years to train a 'heavy' one depending on who you read.  That makes me think that many/most of his slave phalanx had previous military experience.

Quote from: Anton on May 26, 2022, 08:33:10 PM

Also I'd note it took(out of our period) six weeks to train a light pike man and anything between 6 months and a couple of years to train a 'heavy' one depending on who you read.  That makes me think that many/most of his slave phalanx had previous military experience.

Given that a lot of 'military' skills would be civilian skills, such as throwing javelins, and a lot of law was policed by the people involved, I think a high proportion of the population would have skills which were immediately transferrable.

Quote from: RichT on May 26, 2022, 03:51:31 PM
Well it's £24 on P&S, or £18.75 on Amazon, hardback (about the price of ten toy soldiers, or five cavalry) (no doubt postage, customs etc will up that), or the Kindle edition (if you happen to have a Kindle) is £4.79 (about the price of a post-game pint). I don't know what financial position anyone is in of course - I'm grateful if any of their money comes my way.

Ooh I see Hoplites now has a rating and review on Amazon - thank you Lector! Much appreciated. "The squeaky wheel gets the grease."

Sorry, I'm hijacking this thread, which was supposed to be about Plataea...

OK so it's come out as an ebook - good, I can afford that.

And yes, it's very naughty of you to push your book on this thread, I wouldn't dream of blowing my trumpet for Ancient Battle Formations. 

QuoteAnd yes, it's very naughty of you to push your book on this thread, I wouldn't dream of blowing my trumpet for Ancient Battle Formations. 

No, it wouldn't occur to you to promote Optio either  

No complaints have been received by the moderators about self-promotion so far but , if taken to excess, I'm sure there will be.  So, provided you don't overdo it, I think you're fine.  It's good to have authors and researchers share their work here at the price of a little promotion for their wares, IMO.

It is a sad sign of how little I have been on here that I missed a whole thread about me.  I'm linking to a presentation that I did at the Harvard Plataiai symposium last spring, which covers some of this: https://youtu.be/Sjypd4iSTnw

If any have specific questions, I would be happy to answer them. I see in the discussion you guy hit upon what I would have answered as to the 7 helots per Spartiate and how they could form behind. Assuming personal attendants and others may not have been equipped for battle, a smaller number of helots is easier to imagine.  The other thing to consider is that the line is needed to form a barricade behind which the helots can shelter (as the front ranks of Maurice's folcum do for example, or the Persians for that matter), but the swarm of light troops can be really any distance from the line, running up and sheltering to throw things and then moving back out of range. This apparently is what even hoplites could do in Tyrtaios's day.

I walked the battlefield this summer and we marched the route the Spartans must have taken to their last position. I can tell you that if there were helots in the battle, they were behind the Spartiates, not on the flanks. There is simply no room for them on the hill. If you want to see some beautiful images of hoplites on the battlefield: https://plataea2022.com/thursday-morning-march/