Hi all
I was messaged recently :-
"Hi, I was wondering if you know of any DBA players from the Whitby/Scarborough/Middlesbrough area? "
Anyone out there?
Martin,
There's a small group of us who play BBDBA most Thursday evenings at the Cleveland Bay PH in Redcar.
Graham
Indeed Martin, Me!!
CarlL
NOT intended as criticism of Martin who has acted in good faith but I am concerned that this section can be used by third parties, who may or may not be an SoA member, via SoA members to seek information here; especially if the SoA member doesn't know whom they are introducing.
A little disconcerting.
CarlL
From time to time someone will ask me to put them in touch with other wargamers in their area. My policy is to send a message to the relevant Members stating the name and contact details of the requestor and suggesting that, if of interest, the recipients should contact the requestor directly.
I recommend this procedure to all who post on this board as it should address Carl's concerns regarding the privacy of our Members.
8)
I am afraid I have to disagree with both Nick and Martin. The rules of the Forum are quite clear:
"The purpose of this forum (and, as regards the terminology of the general forum rules, its "Topic") is to allow Society members to look for other players, either for 1:1 games or to advertise their gaming club."
The Players Seeking Players should be for SoA members seeking other SoA members, and not for SoA members helping non - members to use the Forum to seek out players. The non member should be encouraged to become a member, then introduce themselves on the Forum and then openly seek other players. We should not, IMHO, be introducing others whom we don't know. At least becoming a member shows an element of commitment and public scrutiny which Nick's and Martin's proposal of acceptable activity fails to do, and could allow non members to use the facilities of the membership, like this Forum, without having made any commitment to the SoA or to its rules.
Hopefully, we can create and maintain a lasting community of members, who share an interest in history or ancient gaming or some aspects of both; by encouraging non members to become members and by maintaining a commitment to our own SoA community by not letting its membership services be used by non-members who have made no commitment to the SoA. Non members should seek players by other means and members should not use this facility on behalf of non-members, IMHO.
CarlL
I had wondered whether that was at the root of your objection, Carl, and disagree in my turn.
First, limiting the posts in this way suggests that we are a closed group, only really interested in playing other members of the SoA - a Secret Society of Ancients as it were. Charging a £27 fee to effect an introduction seems a bit steep, especially if no matches result, but since the fee is the only condition for joining I'm not sure what degree of commitment it demonstrates and, in the absence of a "fit and proper persons" test, I don't understand what public scrutiny is involved.
Second, individual members are capable of deciding for themselves whether or not to respond to such posts. If their current circle of opponents meets their needs, they can ignore the post. However, other members might welcome the discovery that there is another Ancients wargamer living nearby. In other words, it is not just the non-member who stands to benefit.
Third, putting the non-member in contact with members of the Society might encourage the non-member to join in due course.
Fourth, how far do we take this members only restriction? If a member wants to buy a particular figure, say some unpainted 25mm Sassanids, should I ask the non-SoA members at my local club if they have any? (Because they will benefit financially from any sale.) Can members offer items for sale on behalf of non-members - or even late members? If so, am I allowed to mention this to a non-member who might be interested in buying those items? (Potentially both the current and the future owner would both be non-members in this scenario. Is the Society's nasal epidermis damaged by such a transaction?)
Similarly, if a non-member mentions a particular topic and I remember that there was an article on that very subject in a recent Slingshot, should I (a) give him the issue number and tell him he can buy a back copy from the SoA website? (b) lend him my copy and hope that, having read it, he feels moved to join the Society? (c) do nothing because there are other sources he could turn to?
As you say, there are other fora where non-members can look for players. I believe it would be to the Society's benefit to be one of them.
Denis
Thank you Carl for raising this point of principle on the Forum where it can be properly discussed by our Members.
Thank you Denis for putting the case against Carl's arguments in such a considered manner.
As a Forum moderator, my interpretation of this board's purpose ("to allow Society members to look for other players") means that the converse is also within its terms and I agree with Denis that it is likely to benefit both the Society and the hobby as a whole. This is entirely within the constitution of the Society.
On a similar note, we have previously allowed Members to use the Forum to sell figures, etc, on behalf of others who, for whatever reason, no longer wish to keep them. This also generally benefits both Society Members and the hobby as a whole. We do keep an eye on these particular boards to ensure it is individuals rather than commercial entities involved.
Incidentally, it is not clear from Martin's original post that this particular 3rd party is not a Society Member. The active (or even inactive) Forum membership is a small proportion of the Society's total membership, many of whom have no desire to interact with any on-line discussion media. However, none of this affects my moderational position on Martin's post, which is to let it stand.
8)
Denis,
If you don't pay your membership fee you are not a member and wont receive Slingshot for free, so why do you expect other services to be free to non members? Yes a club is a closed group, if it has membership entry fee and rules. No problem, you can choose to join or not join.
Individual members are better informed about the choices they make to contact somebody if they can read some ones introductory comments on the Forum or know from Slingshot contributions, or attending Games Days / AGMs etc a little of the 'stranger' you cannot do this if we allow non members to use this service. OK Nick might say I know this guy Denis, I have played him many times, he is great guy etc.. But you cannot say this if you introduce a stranger. (And back to point above. )
Knowing other members are using the service rather than complete strangers, provides an element of like minded people conversing. Introducing strangers is more hit and miss. Yes, most of my wargames contacts have started as strangers, but the fact that they chose to seek membership of the SoA (or other similar hobby clubs) provides an element of this contact being genuine in their hobby focus and after that you can choose to continue or discontinue contact.
In the days before the net, the Slingshot rule was that only members could advertise figures for sale in the Slingshot. Back to my first two paras: its a service for members, and some assurance this person is genuine (from being a member). So why should our internet Forum be different? it is a SERVICE for MEMBERS. Paid for from membership fees. Yes it is a closed club.
If the Slingshot has a readership of 20,000 but only 200 paying members then lots of members are selling their Society short. Yes share that there are articles of interest with non members but encourage them to join rather than starting a non members reading library. membership currently is £27 for six issues. What will six pints cost you? What will six coffees cost you? How much will you pay for six copies of likes of WSS? £36 on the basic package. What will six 28mm figures cost you? Well looking at Aventine Miniatures earlier this evening six Sassanid Clibinarii will cost you £20 plus P&P.
Get real Denis. SoA membership costs are quite small. And yes it is a closed club. And back to my first point it is a service for members, paid for by members.
CarlL
Access to some of the forum - including, ironically, this thread - is available to non-members on a "read only" basis.
I wonder how many non-members would feel encouraged to join after reading this exchange.
I'm a member and am reading it with utter disbelief. It is not good optics.
On visibility to non-members, it's there to contribute to the society's dynamic (as in changing, as opposed to static) presence in the online world. It isn't usually edited to appeal to that audience, just to allow people to peep in the window and get more of an understanding of what the SoA is about. Hopefully, they will be interested in joining but, if not, there will be a general awareness of our existence and activities.
Nick or I can split the topic and place the latter part under a members only banner (like Forum discussions) , though context would be lost. However, Nick is taking moderatorial lead here, so its his call.
Quote from: Erpingham on January 19, 2023, 09:55:40 AM
>
Nick or I can split the topic and place the latter part under a members only banner (like Forum discussions) , though context would be lost. However, Nick is taking moderatorial lead here, so its his call.
As a matter of fact, I had asked Nick to delete the thread / my OP (forum won't let a lay-member delete post 1 of a thread) as I thought it had gone way beyond anything I'd expected, but he considered it needed debating (and in retrospect I guess I agree).
Had no idea this was effectively 'public'.
Quote from: Martin Smith on January 19, 2023, 02:13:05 PM
Quote from: Erpingham on January 19, 2023, 09:55:40 AM
>
Nick or I can split the topic and place the latter part under a members only banner (like Forum discussions) , though context would be lost. However, Nick is taking moderatorial lead here, so its his call.
As a matter of fact, I had asked Nick to delete the thread / my OP (forum won't let a lay-member delete post 1 of a thread) as I thought it had gone way beyond anything I'd expected, but he considered it needed debating (and in retrospect I guess I agree).
Had no idea this was effectively 'public'.
I would also have erred on the side of having an open discussion if you'd asked me. However, I confess I'd forgotten this was a public area of the forum, hence the offer to move it (and I think on reflection a full move rather than a split is the better option).
👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Martin, Anthony, Nik and Denis, I am surprised by your shock as my core point is enshrined in the Forum rule which I quoted above and which I presumed was the basis for posting here (but not reading here).
I am happy that our Society allows open debate about its practices and principles. I was shocked to hear that you would want to delete this debate or delete what can be read.
In my long history of being an SoA member (forgotten now if it was 1974 when I joined) I have only once asked for something to be deleted and that was my place of residence when I had not consented to it being given out. Similarly I have been a member of other specialist wargames Society / Club(s)... currently two others... and I have only once asked for something to be deleted and again personal information I had not consented to somebody else sharing.
I would not put in 'print' (or its social media equivalent in our case) what I do not hold to be true, and I would refrain from sharing others personal information (not simply because of the law but because in principle because it belongs to others not me).
So I was truly surprised at the call to remove part or all of our debate above. This would seem a very 'Stalinistic' airbrushing of open debate (in our Society, albeit a closed group in terms of input). Open debate helps us evaluate the running of our Society as well as our (as in members) perceptions of our Society; the history we enjoy reading or researching; and the games or figures and models we end up making or painting. We may have to make guesses or use our artistic licence when putting paint to tin men to represent our perception of their history or appearance.
However I had thought the Forum rules about the operation of this section of our Forum were clear (and fixed) and I was shocked to find information could be exchanged about non members with members (who would be unaware of this unless stated).
May your shock find relief in honest debate and in the pleasure of our Society sharing knowledge about history, gaming styles, and where and how others game.
CarlL
To be clear Carl, I am not at all shocked and support the idea of open debate within the society. However, the issue was raised that certain members were concerned that the debate could be seen by those outside the society and that debate could be misinterpreted by onlookers to the disbenefit of the society. Hence the option of moving it whole to a members only area. Nick has not commented on this suggestion, which suggests to me he is happy with the status quo.
To be clear on my part, I wasn't shocked either. As I said in my initial response, I had wondered whether that might not be the root of your concern.
The rule is, as you say, very clear*. However, it is not the law of the Medes and the Persians.
Edit: *I've just noticed that the rule in question was changed a few days ago.
Thank you Denis, I had not realised the Forum rules had changed.
Interesting changes.
More interesting the 'unseen hand' that changes the rules and no notifications of same..... time was it would need a Special General Meeting to change any SoA rules.... :)
Now there is a question about closed groups... how SoA rules are changed and by whom .... answers on a postcard? .... but life is too short.... I have figures to paint, games to play, and not enough cash to train it to London for a Special AGM.... ;)
CarlL