While googling Etruscan metalwork for another thread, I came across this
http://regolinigalassi.wordpress.com/2011/11/23/digital-restoration-of-a-fragmented-patera/
Not Etruscan but apparently Phoenecian done in an Egyptian style, dated 630 BC. I'm guessing the Phoenecian connection is because, while the style of the columns of troops is very Egyptian, the long robes and round bossed shields don't seem to fit. Any thoughts on this one?
A chariot wheel with seven spokes at the bottom of the picture?
The hairstyle looks Egyptian
Jim
They look very like troops identified as Saitic Egyptian from a Cypriot bronze dish.
I think types like them are illustrated in the Stillman and Tallis WRG book. and Essex make a 15mm figure.
Roy
Quote from: Erpingham on August 02, 2014, 09:29:27 AM
I'm guessing the Phoenician connection is because, while the style of the columns of troops is very Egyptian, the long robes and round bossed shields don't seem to fit. Any thoughts on this one?
At a rough guess, these may be Carians and Ionians in Egyptian service. The long 'robes' of the spearmen may be intended for armour.
Curious are the apparent 'lances' carried left-handed by several of the cavalrymen. Again at a guess, these would seem to reflect Assyrian influence and a melee role.
If the long robes are intended as armour then could they be for charioteers?
Roy
I would suggest it is more likely that they are heavy infantry, i.e. the sort that expects to be shot at a lot.
Taking a quick figure count, there is one chariot, 11 cavalry, 10 shielded infantry and 14 archers. The cavalry contingent is rather numerous, but otherwise troop type ratios seem reasonable. If the long-coated figures were chariot crews I would expect some vague correspondence with the number of chariots (not necessarily exact) but the 10:1 discrepancy seems to militate against such an interpretation, at least to my way of thinking.
However if, for example, it represented some sort of funeral procession, you get the dead man in the chariot, his kinsmen on horseback and a representative selection of the soldiers he commanded as the infantry.
I think we are justified in looking at these illustrations and taking away details of equipment and dress, but less justified in extrapolating the numbers to 'army' size
Jim
Granted, Jim, though do we know of a Mediterranean culture (specifically Egyptian, Phoeniocian or Etruscan or one they knew very well) which paraded dead men in chariots?
I agree that using the patera as a basis for troop ratios is at best shaky, but the point in question was whether the men in long coats could be dismounted chariot types, and my thinking was that there are rather a lot of them for the one chariot. :)
And see also http://www.academia.edu/5888925/Etruscanning_-_Digital_Encounters_with_the_Regolini_Galassi_Tomb (http://www.academia.edu/5888925/Etruscanning_-_Digital_Encounters_with_the_Regolini_Galassi_Tomb)
Quote from: aligern on August 02, 2014, 07:01:20 PM
They look very like troops identified as Saitic Egyptian from a Cypriot bronze dish.
I think types like them are illustrated in the Stillman and Tallis WRG book. and Essex make a 15mm figure.
Though I have half an idea that the Tallis-Stillman figures are based on a different piece of metalwork, showing similar spearmen but in shorter tunics. (And may not be identified as Saitic, but a little earlier?) As Jim said, the hairstyle looks Egyptian to me; and we do have Assyrian renderings of Kushite troops in Egypt with round shields, so either these or the Sea Peoples might have been responsible for their introduction.
Glad to have you back Duncan. Most of us who have looked at this I think can only see Egyptian artistry in this - I wonder why the write-up suggests a Phoenician connection?
On the armoured robes question, is there are clear parallel for this? The handling of the fabric seems pretty similar on the short-tunic figures and the long robe ones.
Quote from: Erpingham on August 04, 2014, 02:32:54 PMMost of us who have looked at this I think can only see Egyptian artistry in this - I wonder why the write-up suggests a Phoenician connection?
There's a whole slew of metalwork done in this style, a lot of which mixes Egyptian and West-Asian features in both style and subject matter, and which is generally identified as Phoenician. The findspots - such as Etruria and Cyprus - match with known areas of Phoenician trade. I don't recall much detail about the identifications, really, but you'll find metalwork of this type all over the usual books on Phoenician art.
The Amathus bowl is a good example of the school - http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/me/s/silver_bowl,_scenes_in_relief.aspx (http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/me/s/silver_bowl,_scenes_in_relief.aspx) - notable for what may be one of the first depictions of a body of hoplites.
Actually I think the Stillman-Tallis figure was based on the infantry here (http://www.christusrex.org/www1/vaticano/ETd3-Bowl.jpg), which looks like a different bowl, but also from the Regolini-Galassi tomb - http://www.christusrex.org/www1/vaticano/ET1-Etrusco.html (http://www.christusrex.org/www1/vaticano/ET1-Etrusco.html).
One interesting thing that the restored patera has, which the other bowl lacks (as does Stillman/Tallis for this period) is the archers.