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I am going to move into 10mm Greeks/Persians and am eyeing up Pendraken Army packs to get started but I wanted to make up a baggage area for each and spotted that Irregular miniatures have a variety of 2 and four wheeled carts with options for horses or oxen as well as baggage animals. Is there any evidence that should weight my choices for Greeks/Persians?

You need Persian baggage camels, if only for the chance to model one being attacked by a lion:

Quote from: Herodotos 7.125As Xerxes marched by this route, lions attacked the camels which carried his provisions; nightly they would come down out of their lairs and made havoc of the camels alone, seizing nothing else, man or beast of burden. I wonder what prevented the lions from touching anything but the camels, creatures which they had not seen and had no knowledge of until then.

There is an Achaemenid relief from Dascyleum showing two-wheel vehicles, but they are probably funerary.

Quote from: Duncan Head on March 01, 2023, 12:20:53 PMYou need Persian baggage camels, if only for the chance to model one being attacked by a lion:

Quote from: Herodotos 7.125As Xerxes marched by this route, lions attacked the camels which carried his provisions; nightly they would come down out of their lairs and made havoc of the camels alone, seizing nothing else, man or beast of burden. I wonder what prevented the lions from touching anything but the camels, creatures which they had not seen and had no knowledge of until then.

There is an Achaemenid relief from Dascyleum showing two-wheel vehicles, but they are probably funerary.

Thanks Duncan, Irregular have pack camels in the list. In those reliefs it look like horses pulling the carts, for some reason I expected oxen but perhaps if these are funeral carts they are going upmarket on the beasts. It sounds as if they did have other beasts as well as the camels so on this evidence for the Persians some camels and a few two wheeled carts pulled by horses would be perfect.

For what it is worth, have just looked through my copy of Crouwel's work on pre-Roman wheeled vehicles in Italy.  He confirms what I suspected, that in the Greek and Etruscan artistic corpus, whilst wedding and funerary carts, and the odd wagon, are depicted, there is only the occasional evidence for possible cargo usage.  The carts in particular that are shown are small pony trap types, with seats, though the one possible cargo usage he cites is a pot where the driver may be perched on some sort of cargo bundle rather than a big cushion.

It may simply be that Greek and Italic artists were just not that interested in depicting farmers going to market as opposed to weddings and funerals, (no Constables and haywains...) but Crouwel also comments that, before the Romans got into road building in a big way, pack animals such as asses and mules were simply much more practical and economic, especially in areas of rough terrain.  Which of course, whilst he is talking about Italy, especially Tuscany, could apply pretty well to most of Greece.

Quote from: DBS on March 01, 2023, 04:30:31 PMFor what it is worth, have just looked through my copy of Crouwel's work on pre-Roman wheeled vehicles in Italy.  He confirms what I suspected, that in the Greek and Etruscan artistic corpus, whilst wedding and funerary carts, and the odd wagon, are depicted, there is only the occasional evidence for possible cargo usage.  The carts in particular that are shown are small pony trap types, with seats, though the one possible cargo usage he cites is a pot where the driver may be perched on some sort of cargo bundle rather than a big cushion.

It may simply be that Greek and Italic artists were just not that interested in depicting farmers going to market as opposed to weddings and funerals, (no Constables and haywains...) but Crouwel also comments that, before the Romans got into road building in a big way, pack animals such as asses and mules were simply much more practical and economic, especially in areas of rough terrain.  Which of course, whilst he is talking about Italy, especially Tuscany, could apply pretty well to most of Greece.

Fully agree with the reasoning here, I was thinking the same way. Also I suspect there would have been a lot more people milling around than I am going to model but then I thought that a load of folks milling around is quite ambiguous on a table-top battlefield so although I have sent off for some pack animals I decided a couple of carts would help made a better statement, 'This is the baggage' so although not historically accurate I think they will look fine for my purposes.

Quote from: DBS on March 01, 2023, 04:30:31 PM... but Crouwel also comments that, before the Romans got into road building in a big way, pack animals such as asses and mules were simply much more practical and economic, especially in areas of rough terrain.  Which of course, whilst he is talking about Italy, especially Tuscany, could apply pretty well to most of Greece.

The Greeks did use some wagons, though:

Quote from: Xenophon, Spartan ConstitutionSo that, even on campaign, the Spartans are well-supplied with all the conveniences enjoyed by people living as citizens at Sparta. All the implements and instruments whatsoever which an army may need in common are ordered to be in readiness, some on wagons and others on baggage animals.

Quote from: Thucydides 5.72.3 on First MantineiaAs soon as they came to close quarters with the enemy, the Mantinean right broke their Sciritae and Brasideans, and bursting in with their allies and the thousand picked Argives into the unclosed breach in their line cut up and surrounded the Lacedaemonians, and drove them in full rout to the wagons, slaying some of the older men on guard there.

There were also enough wagons being used - locally at least - at Sparta for them to form a defensive line against Pyrrhus.

Not suggesting that wheeled transport was not available, simply that pack animals may have been predominant, and more affordable for the average hoplite.

That is perhaps the key question - who paid for the transport?  In most cases, one assumes the burden fell on the individual hoplites if one is talking about city state armies.  Maybe with the Spartans - which are the ones mentioned above - it was a bit different because Sparta was a bit different (perhaps linked with their messing system)?  Perhaps overseas mercenary forces had transport paid for by their employer if they were canny in negotiating a contract, just as they sometimes seem to have been provided with clothing and kit?  But I suspect that if one is talking about city hoplites, then it is individuals, or small groups of individuals getting together, having to provide their own baggage.  Maybe a wealthy hoplite has a cart or wagon, but an ass might be more affordable?

Actually, just realised that Duncan's quotation from Xenophon perhaps supports this argument since it seems a good example of Xenophon highlighting as he was wont to do, best practice that, by inference, was perhaps lacking in other armies.

I think you can use whatever you feel fits, I can't imagine anyone would complain too much.

I have quite a few of the Irregular wagons etc (including the camel cart) at both 25mm and more recently 6mm. Most are out of period but don't look too odd when viewed altogether and from a distance.

Quote from: dwkay57 on March 02, 2023, 08:42:52 AMI think you can use whatever you feel fits, I can't imagine anyone would complain too much.

I have quite a few of the Irregular wagons etc (including the camel cart) at both 25mm and more recently 6mm. Most are out of period but don't look too odd when viewed altogether and from a distance.

Ooh! camel carts, just checked and they look great at 28mm but are not a straight off the peg option at 10mm. It not an urgent as I have just bought few hundred 10mm figs so I will be busy for quite a while but I might try contacting them to see if they can scale one  for me (to be fair unlikely in metal)or I suspect I might have to try my hand at a conversion.

Quote from: Ian61 on March 02, 2023, 10:00:06 AMOoh! camel carts, just checked and they look great at 28mm but are not a straight off the peg option at 10mm. It not an urgent as I have just bought few hundred 10mm figs so I will be busy for quite a while but I might try contacting them to see if they can scale one  for me (to be fair unlikely in metal)or I suspect I might have to try my hand at a conversion.

Maybe a 15 mm donkey or ox cart drawn by a 10 mm camel would be about right.

Quote from: LawrenceG on March 02, 2023, 10:23:09 AMMaybe a 15 mm donkey or ox cart drawn by a 10 mm camel would be about right.

Yep, Note made of that, would make sense.