Little Mantinea 362BCE

[Jim Webster]

For a screen shot, save it then attach it.  Attachments are at bottom of post, not on the toolbar.

Ah, they are if you 'reply' but not if you 'quote' which is where I went wrong

[Erpingham]

For a screen shot, save it then attach it.  Attachments are at bottom of post, not on the toolbar.

Ah, they are if you 'reply' but not if you 'quote' which is where I went wrong

They are also missing from Quick Reply, so need to use the blue reply button.

[Imperial Dave]

As was my mistake

[Justin Swanton]

That's all one can ask for Jim. Beats Bargain Hunt anyway.

There are times when I find our total lack of telly to be a real joy 
I get so much more time for reading really useful stuff 

I don't miss telly at all. My problem is YouTube.

Current broadband speed YouTube isn't really a problem
DOWNLOAD 0.79Mbps
UPLOAD0.54 Mbps

I would include a screen shot if I could work out how to include a picture which doesn't have a url 

You can't just upload the pic to imgur and grab the url from there?

I don't have a imgur account, it's not something I've ever needed, I don't do enough pictures to make picture sharing a thing

It's free. I don't think you need to create an account.

[dwkay57]

And there was me thinking "gosh look at all that discussion on my battle report....."

Silly of me really

[Justin Swanton]

And there was me thinking "gosh look at all that discussion on my battle report....."

Silly of me really

I enjoyed it. No really!

[Erpingham]

And there was me thinking "gosh look at all that discussion on my battle report....."

Silly of me really

OK, back to topic.  Do you think the fall of Epaminondas had too great an impact?  To what extent did hoplite armies give way because of their commander being lost?

[Jim Webster]

And there was me thinking "gosh look at all that discussion on my battle report....."

Silly of me really

I enjoyed it. No really!

Yes, I always enjoy them, they go really well with a coffee and a sandwich which passes for my lunch 

[Imperial Dave]

depends on their popularity, their visibility and also the training of the hoplites I guess....

[dwkay57]

May be his demise did have too big an impact. He was treated as a Warlord (which my usual Theban commander is) and so his men get a bigger demise with his lack of life. If I had made him Elected - which is what I should have done possibly - then the effect of his death would have been less. Whether any of the above is historically accurate, I don't know. I know in my battles Greek commanders tend to die more frequently than other generals, but the impact of their death is just one element - as his Imperialship writes - in whether the rest of his army decide to call it a day.

However, potentially the history changing moment was the decision by the Mantinea Strategos to attack - which I'm not sure he did originally. Had Epameinondas survived for just one more period then a combination of other events would have swung the odds in the Theban favour.

[Justin Swanton]

His death certainly seems to have stopped the battle which was not yet over. But Greeks had a code of honour and fighting to the finish, especially slaughtering a beaten opponent, was beneath them. Once one side had come to the conclusion it has won it was a time to persuade the other side of the fact and wait for them to ask permission to collect their dead. Problem here is that both sides concluded they had won and waited a long time, until finally the Spartans blinked. It was a very unsatisfactory battle.

let me copy here something I posted on TMP:

The death of the general appears to affect the army very differently depending on which army. For the Persians it's game over (Alexander always went for Persian commanders or Darius himself since he knew this). For Macedonians it would probably enable them to win the battle. For Greeks it seems to stop the battle, but the side that lost its general hasn't necessarily lost the battle – 2 Mantinea as an example. For early and mid-Republican Romans the general may have to die to encourage the troops, the famous devotio. So how do we wargame this?

[dwkay57]

Thinking about it overnight - as on does - the impact of Epameinondas' death may not have been that different between the original battle and my re-fight. The difference appears to be the state of the battle and the timing.

In the real battle, the Theban coalition had the upper hand already and looked on the way to victory but their commander's demise seemed to stop them pushing on to achieve a clear victory. In my re-fight, they had not got the upper hand when Epameinondas met his doom and and so their decision to hold stopped them engaging further.

[Erpingham]

In the real battle, the Theban coalition had the upper hand already and looked on the way to victory but their commander's demise seemed to stop them pushing on to achieve a clear victory. In my re-fight, they had not got the upper hand when Epameinondas met his doom and and so their decision to hold stopped them engaging further.

We might note one of the anecdotes about Epaminondas' death have him asking after his lieutenants and being told they are dead.  It is possible, therefore, that the Thebans had lost all their acknowledged senior officers and had no-one to assume command of any end-game.

[Jim Webster]

In the real battle, the Theban coalition had the upper hand already and looked on the way to victory but their commander's demise seemed to stop them pushing on to achieve a clear victory. In my re-fight, they had not got the upper hand when Epameinondas met his doom and and so their decision to hold stopped them engaging further.

We might note one of the anecdotes about Epaminondas' death have him asking after his lieutenants and being told they are dead.  It is possible, therefore, that the Thebans had lost all their acknowledged senior officers and had no-one to assume command of any end-game.

Leading from the front in that sort of combat could mean that you were using your commanders as ablative shielding!