Y Gododdin - some thoughts

[Imperial Dave]

Jumping around a bit but after the 5th Century thread covered recently i have turned my attention to the mid to late 6th in the North to another fascinating period of British history. In particular I am researching Y Gododdin the praise poem attributed to Aneurin about a battle at Catraeth in the latter half of the 6th Century. I head read a few different translations of the poem (which has two versions) and of course gotten sucked into reading around the subject. I have also been looking at Taliesin's poems as well including the Battle of Gwen Ystrat which is a praise poem specifically for Urien of Rheged around the same time frame.

Looking at interpretations and analysis by several writers and commentators there is a schism around the two battles of which the 'traditional' version put Gwen Ystrad earlier than Catraeth although possibly fought around the same area. The alternative proposition (Koch mainly but not exclusively) is that the 2 battles are in fact the same and that the 2 poems represent opposite viewpoints. My inclination is with the latter interpretation currently but I know that this is not the majority view. My current reasoning is the below:

- Urien is referred to as Lord of Catraeth
- in Gwen Ystrad (white wide-bottomed valley), he is said to fight against the men of Prydyn (roughly Pictland)
- Catraeth, mentioned by both Taliesin and Aneurin, has been almost universally associated with Catterick in North Yorkshire, of which nearby is Wensleydale which is an anglicised version
  meaning white valley
- Urien is said to be a descendent of Coel Hen and in Y Gododdin there is reference to the enemy being, amongst others, the Coelingas (ie men/tribe of Coel)
- There is a possible reference to Urien fighting against some form of cavalry in the Gwen Ystrad poem
- In y Gododdin, the references indicate that there was at least some of the force being cavalry and in fact a reasonable interpretation is that the 300 (or 363 depending on your preference!)
  reflects the cavalry/elites and that there would have been infantry as well (although of lesser importance in the context of the poem and battle)
- it is possible that the battle (assuming both poems are describing the same event) involves a power struggle of Rheged plus allies versus the Gododdin + allies of which 'Angles' or germanics may have been involved on both sides.
- If we follow the flow that Urien is successful in Gwen Ystrad/Catraeth this leads to further battles and the eventual episode of his demise at the hands of an assassin whilst besieging Lindisfarne (Anlges/Berncians) around 585AD.   
- This dismantles Rheged's alliances and allows expansion by the Bernicians which culminates in the eventual formation of Northumbria some 30 or 40 years later


Its not perfect and the counter view is that Catraeth follows Gwen Ystrad and are 2 separate battles with possibly 10-20 years between them with the 2nd battle being a consequence of the death of Urien and his hegemony in 585AD

Anyway, a bit of rambling and will form the basis for some armies to build and paint and hopefully wargame as well. There is plenty of info about arms and armour contained in the various poems which might (stress might) form the basis of some starting point for this project

[Jim Webster]

Interesting thoughts. It certainly steps away from what appeared to be the old idea that the battle was some sort of doomed British strike against the relentless advance of the Saxons (insert suitable germanic name here)

But frankly I suspect that cliché has been largely undermined anyway over the last few years. But your interpretation fits in nicely with a picture of warlords, often of 'mixed heritage' leading forces drawn widely from the pool of 'professional' warriors and supplemented by more local levies

Actually this picture could well explain why the Gallic Chronicle could talk about Britain falling to the Saxons long before anybody else seems to have noticed. All it needs is that the 'officials' or 'warlords' or 'local magistrates' were at the 'Germanic' end of the cultural range expected from 'Roman' officers, and their men were recruited largely from fighters who were also at the 'Germanic' edge of the range.
Their notional loyalty could still be to some notional concept of a wishy washy united government. They could be formally Christian and so to somebody like St Germanus as he made his way around the country, it would seem quiet and peaceful and well organised.
But at the same time, for anybody just dealing with the coastal ports, everything might look like the Saxons were in charge

[Imperial Dave]

this is true Jim, 'Saxons' is a broad brush epithet which could just mean 'not us' and even 'official' leaders + troops be viewed as outsiders if of foederati status.

I am organising my research into folders (killing a few trees in the process) so am looking to pick elements out that might add more meat to the bones in time. One element I was not familiar with is that there is a reference to Raven devices for Urien so that's a nice element to add for his warriors when I get to put the figures togther

[Jim Webster]

this is true Jim, 'Saxons' is a broad brush epithet which could just mean 'not us' and even 'official' leaders + troops be viewed as outsiders if of foederati status.

I am organising my research into folders (killing a few trees in the process) so am looking to pick elements out that might add more meat to the bones in time. One element I was not familiar with is that there is a reference to Raven devices for Urien so that's a nice element to add for his warriors when I get to put the figures togther

don't know how good this source is  https://avesnoir.com/ravens-in-celtic-mythology/

But it looks as if a Raven banner would be entirely culturally appropriate

[Imperial Dave]

thanks Jim,

also in your example associated with Owain

[Anton]

A good base for discussion there Dave.  Just to add to the mix:

Greater Gododdin may have rested on the Tees with Bryneich as a sub kingdom.

The Coelingas are a group of related dynasties that have emerged from the tribes.  A bit like the Irish Síl (seeds-Grandsons did)  Coel Hen being Grandaddy.

The Angles at Catterick are loyal to Gododdin.

Morcant who assassinated Urien is king of Bryneich and therefore also a Gododdin adherent?

Gododdin is still tribal and not yet a fully dynastic polity?  Maybe?

[Imperial Dave]

useful thoughts. The Angles or some of them must have been allied or at least nominally friendly for the forces of Gododdin to go to Catraeth.

My thought train proposes that the Gododdin are attempting to break Rheged's influence around Catraeth as they can potentially 'see the writing on the wall'. If my proposed timeline is accepted, this comes to pass with the expansion of Rheged via Urien's coalition but ultimately ending in failure for both hi, Rheged and eventually Gododdin as a political entity