Rebel Egyptian siege device

[Jim Webster]

I'm delving about with the Egyptian Great Revolt and there is a papyri describing a rebel attack on a village

I've attached a picture of the Greek, of the translation given and of the word used for the siege device. Anybody got any idea what that term normally represented?

Jim

[Duncan Head]

"Organon" - a fairly generic term for an engine, tool or device, or indeed a bodily organ. Could be anything, could even be deliberately non-specific. See https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=organon&la=greek#lexicon

[Jim Webster]

"Organon" - a fairly generic term for an engine, tool or device, or indeed a bodily organ. Could be anything, could even be deliberately non-specific. See https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=organon&la=greek#lexicon

As you say, pretty much any damned thing. Ah well. Also rebel slingers are mentioned in another papyrus. That is about the limit of the details! 

[Duncan Head]

No reference to trained pikemen so far? 

[Jim Webster]

No reference to trained pikemen so far? 

There's a mention of the soldiers.
Apparently the peasantry used to 'desert the land and hole up in a temple as a way of protesting against high rents, or whatever.
There are records of officials worried about Egyptian soldiers 'just disappearing'
I attach the Greek

There were two pitched battles (at least)
One which defeated the first rebel pharaoh Haronnophris probably about 197 BC. There was another battle against Chaonnophris about 185BC where he stood and fought alongside Nubian allies.

Also because soldiers were specifically pardoned we know they took part.
The question I'd ask is where you got pikes from in Egypt. They may have been able to import wood from Nubia? If pikes were made in two bits it would make it easier to provide the wood.
I'm assuming the Ptolemaic Egyptian soldiers could do more than just wield a pike. They'd been trained for a long period and campaigned for a while as well. One or two people have suggested that Ptolemaic soldiers were issued with pikes when they gathered in the big camps before a campaign. So they may also have used lighter spears/javelins.
One papyrus has an army patrol being accused of attacking a Royal farmer and injuring him with a Barge Pole. The word is Kontos.
But we don't know if the patrol was mounted or on foot.

[DBS]

Agree on the wood, though equally they were clearly able to source something long enough and sturdy enough to be a barge pole...  I would presume the issue would be one of scale; do you need a few barge poles, or a couple of thousand pike shafts to even begin to have a meaningful capability?

[Jim Webster]

Yes, as I read it seems more that the Ptolemaic army also changed during this period as well. So they may have had fewer pikes as well!

[stevenneate]

Could they be nicking them from town or Royal arsenals?  We know the Judaeans of 66 AD cleared out Herod's arsenals long after Herod's demise and we only know this because of Josephus' incredible detailed scribing.  Sounds like some interesting scenarios.

"Organon" is surely all the evidence I need to equip my 6th Dynasty Egyptians with organ guns?  Protest all you like but it's in the primary sources....

[Jim Webster]

Could they be nicking them from town or Royal arsenals?  We know the Judaeans of 66 AD cleared out Herod's arsenals long after Herod's demise and we only know this because of Josephus' incredible detailed scribing.  Sounds like some interesting scenarios.

"Organon" is surely all the evidence I need to equip my 6th Dynasty Egyptians with organ guns?  Protest all you like but it's in the primary sources....

Arsenals is one possible place. Soldiers appear to have always had some of their equipment. There were military camps which might have had other stuff stored.

The problem with Organon is that it's a transliteration of an Egyptian term. An Organon was a small polite man who would approach the gate and ask to be admitted. If refused admission he would gesture to the thugs behind him and say something like 'it's a nice gate you've got there, it would be a shame if something happened to it"

[stevenneate]

Ah, thugs.  A necessary tool of persuasion in any army.  Would fit the rule set Infamy.  I think my 6th Dynasty Egyptians would kick the door of your hut in for good effect but it mush have been punishing on those bare feet.  More a tool in trade for your capricious Akkadians.  Now there's a bunch who liked a good door kicking-in and led by a man for whom a display of thuggery was a sure-fire route to promotion.

[Jim Webster]

Ah, thugs.  A necessary tool of persuasion in any army.  Would fit the rule set Infamy.  I think my 6th Dynasty Egyptians would kick the door of your hut in for good effect but it mush have been punishing on those bare feet.  More a tool in trade for your capricious Akkadians.  Now there's a bunch who liked a good door kicking-in and led by a man for whom a display of thuggery was a sure-fire route to promotion.

They have their place in the martial tradition, and have the added advantage that the rest of the population regard them as expendable