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It's a long long time ago, but I can still remember, in Armies and Enemies of Rome first edition, we had the 1st Century BC legionary with the leather armour. This was because it was mass produced to equip the vast number of legions that were being raised in haste. Airfix even produced the figure

Then it was agreed they wore mail

I've just been reading 'Roman Body Armour' by Hilary & John Travis

Their estimate of the time needed to produce the mail is between 62 and 120 hours. Assuming you get 7 hours work (as opposed to presence on site because even slaves have to eat and sleep, as we're talking about a long term project) you're talking about 9 to 18 workers to produce a mail shirt a day. I want to take the 18 because it's based on empirical evidence rather than calculation

So if we have ten workshops (which will be knocking on for 200 people with admin etc) they'll produce 10 mail shirts a day, which means your legion will take about 500 days.
If you have 50 workshops they'll turn the armour out in 100 days but then you're talking about 1000 staff
Then you're going to have to produce swords, shields, helmets, pila etc.

Now obviously some stuff comes out of stock, but how much stock are you going to carry. Also whilst I can see stock being carried in Italy, a lot of legions were raised elsewhere.


Hilary & John Travis comment that Caesar used Gallic craftsmen used to making mail (although I cannot trace the original source)
Also how many appropriate craftsmen were there, apparently there was some use of iron wire in jewellery but every time I find a mention, the writer talks about making mail.

So I'm casting round to see if anybody has any interesting sources, snippets, or inspired guesses

Sim & Kaminski, Roman Imperial Armour: The production of early imperial military armour p.132 come up with a figure of 230 days for one mailshirt - 200 days for making the rings, 30 for assembly - though I am not entirely clear what this is based on, whether it includes making the steel or starts with drawing the wire for instance. This is for a high-quality shirt of small rings, though, because it contains 40,000 rings whereas earlier they say 20,000 for a shirt of 12mm diameter rings.

I think your seven-hour work day is very generous to the slaves, considering 14-16 hour days were common in early modern factories. Even deducting breaks for food and other necessities, a 10-hour day would seem more realistic.

Quote from: Duncan Head on April 10, 2021, 07:02:30 PM
Sim & Kaminski, Roman Imperial Armour: The production of early imperial military armour p.132 come up with a figure of 230 days for one mailshirt - 200 days for making the rings, 30 for assembly - though I am not entirely clear what this is based on, whether it includes making the steel or starts with drawing the wire for instance. This is for a high-quality shirt of small rings, though, because it contains 40,000 rings whereas earlier they say 20,000 for a shirt of 12mm diameter rings.

I think your seven-hour work day is very generous to the slaves, considering 14-16 hour days were common in early modern factories. Even deducting breaks for food and other necessities, a 10-hour day would seem more realistic.

Hilary & John Travis mention Sin & Kaminski and commented their figure seemed high.
The Dura Europus shirt was 7mm and 8mm rings
The seven hours is generous, but whilst you can have people on site for twelve or fourteen hours, the amount of work they do tails off if they get these hours to work month after month. When the authors analysed the actual manufacture they raised the issue that the work is very detailed and fiddly. So some jobs could only be done by younger people, older, long sighted people, cannot rivet rings. Also factory work tends by definition to be simple and repetitive, a lot of the time you can mentally switch off. Whilst drawing wire might fall into this category, knitting rings together takes a lot more concentration and is far more fiddly. Also it's the sort of enterprise which the authors also thought a family enterprise might work well as you got the mixture of ages and skills with in normal times perhaps older males drawing wire and other rest of the family making and assembling rings. But either way, allowing for longer hours brings the Sim & Kaminski shirts into about the same range as I suggested.

One problem is the scaling up of the enterprise. Iron wire isn't a major commodity so you'd doubtless draw your own. In piece time legions would probably make their own rings for repair purposes. But whether legions before Augustus had the permanent establishment of tradesmen and similar to do this I wouldn't like to say. But one way or another, with local smiths or their own people they could do maintenance.

For somebody making mail shirts, there isn't going to be a huge demand. They're damned expensive, whilst they wear out, it takes an awful long time. A legion might need a  hundred a year to replace losses and for the central organisation to build up a bit of stock. 
Then suddenly Caesar raises two new legions. He sets up his own production facilities in Gaul (perhaps) where they have the skills.
They reckon that by the time Octavian won there were over 50 legions in existence. Some others had fallen by the wayside already. Then there were marines, who might have worn mail

I wonder if the initial concentration would be on producing shields, swords, helmets, pila etc. Pulling out of stock what they could but then manufacturing. Any mail in stock issued, in simple terms starting at the front and working backwards through the unit.

There's also whatever 'padded' garment worn under the mail. They could probably be produced more quickly, so I do wonder if some men were sent into battle wearing that?

That is odd - I posted something around the same time as Duncan and it has disappeared.

Anyway, my thought was the degree to which demobbed veterans may have kept any of their kit.  Keeping a valuable mail shirt seems least likely, unless you are a retired centurion, but all of the contenders relied quite heavily on recalling veterans to the colours, especially young Gaius Julius Caesar divi filius, and one wonders whether what they got was simply a bunch of middle aged but trained bodies, or at least partially equipped soldiers who had kept, say, their old helmet and sword?

Oh, and the other thought - when did they start experimenting with segmentata?  Yes, the earliest archaeological evidence is typically dated to circa the last decade BC, but might that be the accident of survival?  Segmentata is a radically different approach that suddenly appears.  It is cheaper and easier to make.  It is thought to be primarily associated with the legions, as opposed to the auxilia.

Is it possible that it was the very specific imperatives of mass mobilisation for the civil wars that led to it, rather than some assumed perceived technical superiority over hamata?  Even if not actually deployed en masse during the wars, might its genesis still date to then - there are plenty of examples of other military technologies that came properly into use just after the conflicts that had led to their development.

According to Hilary & John Travis, the problem with segmentata is that it is harder to make and more expensive than mail!

Now that I cannot personally vouch for, but it may be that it takes more skill and time to produce steel strips of the right size, roll their edges and do the copper alloy trim than to draw wire?
Again there are an awful lot of fittings and buckles to get right.
On top of that, segmentata is apparently better fitting than mail. You don't want too much under it or it starts to open out the plates and this can leave openings. So you would have your segmentata in your size. Mail may be less demanding?

Quote from: DBS on April 10, 2021, 08:39:26 PM
That is odd - I posted something around the same time as Duncan and it has disappeared.

Anyway, my thought was the degree to which demobbed veterans may have kept any of their kit.  Keeping a valuable mail shirt seems least likely, unless you are a retired centurion, but all of the contenders relied quite heavily on recalling veterans to the colours, especially young Gaius Julius Caesar divi filius, and one wonders whether what they got was simply a bunch of middle aged but trained bodies, or at least partially equipped soldiers who had kept, say, their old helmet and sword?

Hilary & John Travis make the suggestion that men would often buy their own, better, kit made by local craftsmen and hand back their issue kit.
Apparently a lot of the helmets found at Cremona were pretty substandard, made too quickly in an attempt to get kit to the troops.

So it could well be that by the time a soldier mustered out, a lot of the kit could well be his own. Whether this extended to his mail I wouldn't like to guess

Who were the men that were recruited into the legions? I do wonder if lots of them were already embodied as cohorts, sort if paramilitary or vigiles and raising them for  the legions was simply a matter of organising them into the larger unit and training them as a legion, rather than as cohorts ( which skills they already  possessed). Caesar raised legions in the Province.  I doubt that Roman citizens living there were unarmed considering that there were unpredictable Gauls living to the North.


Much earlier , after Cannae I think, Rome equipped legions that were an exercise in barrel scraping, with Celtic gear stored in the temples.  Now, considering the nature if the repirt its possible that only a percentage of the kit was Gallic and I am not sure that it mentions mail, but it does argue for a very large amount of kit being around before Rome got to desperate measures. I wonder if it was actually expected for every free Roman household to have war gear, especially in the countryside and especially in Gallia, Cisalpina , Gallia TransAlpina, Illyricum and so on.

Quote from: Jim Webster on April 11, 2021, 11:12:19 AM
According to Hilary & John Travis, the problem with segmentata is that it is harder to make and more expensive than mail!

Now that I cannot personally vouch for, but it may be that it takes more skill and time to produce steel strips of the right size, roll their edges and do the copper alloy trim than to draw wire?
Again there are an awful lot of fittings and buckles to get right.
On top of that, segmentata is apparently better fitting than mail. You don't want too much under it or it starts to open out the plates and this can leave openings. So you would have your segmentata in your size. Mail may be less demanding?

Interesting, Sim and Kaminski reckon it was potentially less of a manufacturing burden than squamata, which they reckon is itself less of a burden than hamata.  It could be that they were looking at it more from a perspective of hammering sheet metal vs drawing and joining rings, and that the Travises have looked at more of the systemic burden as you say.

The other potential factor not to be ignored is the bling opportunities presented by segmentata.  A few decades ago, I was involved in procuring for the British Army some extra bayonets, specifically for the Guards.  The reason was that we had introduced the SA-80.  That came with a, rather expensively, black coated (very hard wearing) bayonet to ensure it did not compromise tactical concealment with reflective flashes.  What did the blasted Guards do?  Started to Brillo-pad all the expensive black coatings off so they could make them look pretty on parade...  We got a bit cross with them and said that if polished steel was so important to them, we would get them a second bayonet; I have a vague memory these were coated in chrome or similar.

Lovely vignette David.  I used to own a Japanese cavalry sword that was chromed.  I rather assumed  that the purpose was to create panic in the opponents ( probably Manchurian bandits) by drawing and brandishing the swords  which were otherwise painted green, before launching at them.  The blade was nothing special, unlike the fearsome British 08.
I do think that wire drawing is something that is a very productive  process and would be easily maintained for 16, maybe even 24 hours a day.  With a suitable diversion of slaves to the task. Making rings is also an 'industrialised process.  Creating the finished shirt is more skilled if it is fitted to the torso, so that is where you need skilled men, but semi skilled ring makers could easily  produce square patches of rings that the experts can then join together to make the appropriate shapes to fit to the body.
I do think Jim is inclined to be a bit soft  on the workforce.  Crack the whip, we will have these boys  doing three shifts with piecework and melting down the park railings for raw material.. Put your back into it  Mr Webster there is a war on!

Roy

Quote from: aligern on April 11, 2021, 01:40:46 PM
Who were the men that were recruited into the legions? I do wonder if lots of them were already embodied as cohorts, sort if paramilitary or vigiles and raising them for  the legions was simply a matter of organising them into the larger unit and training them as a legion, rather than as cohorts ( which skills they already  possessed). Caesar raised legions in the Province.  I doubt that Roman citizens living there were unarmed considering that there were unpredictable Gauls living to the North.


Much earlier , after Cannae I think, Rome equipped legions that were an exercise in barrel scraping, with Celtic gear stored in the temples.  Now, considering the nature if the repirt its possible that only a percentage of the kit was Gallic and I am not sure that it mentions mail, but it does argue for a very large amount of kit being around before Rome got to desperate measures. I wonder if it was actually expected for every free Roman household to have war gear, especially in the countryside and especially in Gallia, Cisalpina , Gallia TransAlpina, Illyricum and so on.

I think it was Marcus Aurelius who specifically drafted in 'paramilitaries' and even possibly bandit gangs (from memory) but the Vigils and suchlike were Imperial developments
When you hear of the street fighting between faction during the political disturbances of the 1st century BC, if you wanted to drive armed thugs off the street you raised your own or brought in troops

Certainly Senators and others would have clients, and these clients would have some weapons. One way of raising legions is to go into an area where the cities were your clients (and your Dad had settled legionaries.)

There would be some equipment lying about in some households. But it certainly seems that men expected the state to equip them but during the Cataline conspiracy "troops of gladiators should be quartered on Capua and the other free towns according to the resources of each place;" by the Senate because they had no other troops to send (from Sallust)

One of the conspirators did this to raise troops, "Cethegus, also, was sending messengers to his slaves and freedmen, a picked and trained body of men, entreating them to take a bold step, get their band together, and force their way to him with arms."

Cataline's force wasn't well equipped

While this was taking place in Rome, Catiline combined the forces which he had brought with him with those which Manlius already had, and formed two legions,  filling up the cohorts so far as the number of his soldiers permitted. Then distributing among them equally such volunteers or conspirators as came to the camp, he soon completed the full quota of the legions, although in the beginning he had no more than two thousand men.  But only about a fourth part of the entire force was  provided with regular arms. The others carried whatever weapons chance had given them; namely, javelins or lances, or in some cases pointed stakes.

So it doesn't seem that there were a lot of equipment about

Quote from: aligern on April 11, 2021, 05:33:22 PM
Lovely vignette David.  I used to own a Japanese cavalry sword that was chromed.  I rather assumed  that the purpose was to create panic in the opponents ( probably Manchurian bandits) by drawing and brandishing the swords  which were otherwise painted green, before launching at them.  The blade was nothing special, unlike the fearsome British 08.
I do think that wire drawing is something that is a very productive  process and would be easily maintained for 16, maybe even 24 hours a day.  With a suitable diversion of slaves to the task. Making rings is also an 'industrialised process.  Creating the finished shirt is more skilled if it is fitted to the torso, so that is where you need skilled men, but semi skilled ring makers could easily  produce square patches of rings that the experts can then join together to make the appropriate shapes to fit to the body.
I do think Jim is inclined to be a bit soft  on the workforce.  Crack the whip, we will have these boys  doing three shifts with piecework and melting down the park railings for raw material.. Put your back into it  Mr Webster there is a war on!

Roy

The problem with cracking the whip is that the assumption made was there wasn't 'factories' but small family enterprises. You might have a couple of slaves drawing wire. Indeed you could probably do it 24/7
But assembling and riveting rings by candle light and no reading glasses could end up with a right mess. Some of it was down as children's work because their eyesight is better.

The state might well take over production in war time. training slaves etc. But quality suffers. One suggestion was that you just give out butted mail, a lot faster to make if inferior, and then troops might upgrade their own kit later.
What was interesting was looking a penetration figures for shooting arrows at these chaps, until you wore your mail over heavy padding, it wasn't much better than just the padding at long range (given as 60 feet/18 meters) 
At 30 feet yes the mail did come into its own provided you had enough padding

What do we know of what Romans wore under their mail?

Quote from: Erpingham on April 11, 2021, 06:40:22 PM
What do we know of what Romans wore under their mail?

For this period, we know very little, for later we know there was the Thoracomachus or Subarmalis