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History => Ancient and Medieval History => Topic started by: Erpingham on August 21, 2020, 01:01:48 PM

Title: Worringen 1288
Post by: Erpingham on August 21, 2020, 01:01:48 PM
One of my guilty pleasures is looking at museum dioramas.  Germany, in particular, has a fine tradition of military dioramas, often with flat figures.  I was searching for a rather nice Worringen one when I came across this collection of sources  (https://ims.leeds.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/29/2019/02/Battle-of-Worringen.pdf)on the battle.  Now, Worringen is a complicated battle with competing interpretations, so I don't feel I could turn this into part of our regular battles series without some research, but here it is for anyone who wants to tackle that task.

For those wanting to look at the pictures :

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/YDhUVLF6Ej4XEwKo9cItzMiA0o2ct_tStKqaY__oGxwzN86KcfBGtsKSqQTsQ9CyL16n1a-SibFRRmKcI5sTZ2mUuF0lwyCuic72SF-ugr5N3YOO0xxHVyEZi46r)

(https://rp-online.de/imgs/32/1/8/2/9/5/2/2/3/tok_dae7736f4edf82bc676160a13cafecef/w940_h526_x470_y264_db12436351ffae98.jpg)
Title: Re: Worringen 1288
Post by: Swampster on August 21, 2020, 01:43:00 PM
Interesting comparison.
I've read Van Heelu before - there is a paper discussing it though I could only find it via Wayback https://web.archive.org/web/20060815061109/http://www3.telus.net/~magmeter/worringen.PDF
https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2015/11/07/the-battle-of-worringen-1288/ refers to it.

The old DBA fanaticus site had a fantastic collection of the heraldry of the participants - I don't know if it was archived.
Title: Re: Worringen 1288
Post by: Duncan Head on August 21, 2020, 01:53:09 PM
Nice pictures and a useful link, thanks.

Quote from: Swampster on August 21, 2020, 01:43:00 PMI've read Van Heelu before - there is a paper discussing it though I could only find it via Wayback https://web.archive.org/web/20060815061109/http://www3.telus.net/~magmeter/worringen.PDF

You can find that thesis here (https://era.library.ualberta.ca/items/8bf47baa-1b36-48ed-9553-57ae71b7caae/view/907aceab-15ff-4755-abb8-128272a85eac/MM82135.pdf) now, though it seems to be a photocopy with poorer resolution than the copy on Wayback.
Title: Re: Worringen 1288
Post by: Erpingham on August 21, 2020, 02:01:32 PM
QuoteYou can find that thesis here now, though it seems to be a photocopy with poorer resolution than the copy on Wayback.

I find I downloaded a copy of it in 2005 - time flies.

There was a good article on the battle by Bouko de Groot, who used to post on Ancmed, in Medieval Warfare.  He strongly disagreed with Mahler's version.

The classic description available in English is Verbruggen The Art of Warfare in Western Europe



Title: Re: Worringen 1288
Post by: Andreas Johansson on August 21, 2020, 03:03:38 PM
I have Lehnart's Die Schlacht von Worringen 1288, which also has a quite different take from Mahler. In particular, he doesn't think the Bergish infantry made much difference; he rather credits the Brabantian cavalry and the death of the count of Luxembourg as decisive.

It has a lot of heraldry for participants, so may be of some interest even if one's not up to reading a whole book in German.