For your interest and consideration.
Tod has Michael throw his pila in armour and then in armour and with a scutum.
Quote from: Wien1938 on April 19, 2023, 06:14:36 PMFor your interest and consideration.
Tod has Michael throw his pila in armour and then in armour and with a scutum.
And this time no go-pros were damaged in the making of the film. :)
Quote from: Ian61 on April 19, 2023, 07:32:06 PMQuote from: Wien1938 on April 19, 2023, 06:14:36 PMFor your interest and consideration.
Tod has Michael throw his pila in armour and then in armour and with a scutum.
And this time no go-pros were damaged in the making of the film. :)
;D ;D ;D
Interesting, but still missing the point - range is nothing, penetration is everything.
And accurate penetration is all.
Roll on episode 3
If you can do ballistic calculations (not my skill!), then from the data in the vid you can get to approximate penetration figures.
So for a trained and experienced legionary with mailshirt and shield, something like 30 meters and up. What is interesting is the difference between carrying armour and not carrying it. It makes sense of leves being completely unarmoured - being purely missile troops they can throw further if not encumbered. Velites had a small, light shield and no body armour - to maximise their throwing range whilst allowing them to be melee troops at a pinch?
If a soldier with armour and weaponry runs at, say 10km/h, then the throwers have about 10,8 seconds before their opponents reach them. Which I imagine is just enough time for velites/leves to chuck their javelins, retire back through the hastati who double files before contact.
Following on from Justin's comment, I looked up the differences between the
hasta velitaris and the pilum. I found this article (https://www.academia.edu/27962186/Hasta_Velitaris_The_first_edge_of_the_Roman_army_Res_Militaris_Studia_nad_wojskowo%C5%9Bci%C4%85_antyczn%C4%85_tom_II_2015_s_69_91_ISBN_978_83_63374_37_2), which describes the weapon and experiments with throwing it with an
amentum (throwing strap). Mark will be happy it does include penetration data :) Interesting to compare.
QuoteIf a soldier with armour and weaponry runs at, say 10km/h, then the throwers have about 10,8 seconds before their opponents reach them. Which I imagine is just enough time for velites/leves to chuck their javelins, retire back through the hastati who double files before contact.
Though this does assume that our velites take things to the brink of disaster. Would they still be throwing with the enemy about to charge or is that what they gave hastati pila for?
Quote from: Erpingham on April 20, 2023, 11:19:44 AMFollowing on from Justin's comment, I looked up the differences between the hasta velitaris and the pilum. I found this article (https://www.academia.edu/27962186/Hasta_Velitaris_The_first_edge_of_the_Roman_army_Res_Militaris_Studia_nad_wojskowo%C5%9Bci%C4%85_antyczn%C4%85_tom_II_2015_s_69_91_ISBN_978_83_63374_37_2), which describes the weapon and experiments with throwing it with an amentum (throwing strap). Mark will be happy it does include penetration data :) Interesting to compare.
QuoteIf a soldier with armour and weaponry runs at, say 10km/h, then the throwers have about 10,8 seconds before their opponents reach them. Which I imagine is just enough time for velites/leves to chuck their javelins, retire back through the hastati who double files before contact.
Though this does assume that our velites take things to the brink of disaster. Would they still be throwing with the enemy about to charge or is that what they gave hastati pila for?
Interesting article. The javelin thrown without a strap seems to reach about the same distance as a pilum - 30m. With a strap the distance extends to 50-odd yards or more depending on the technique used. At 50 yards the javelineers have about 18 seconds before the enemy closes to contact with them.
But I'm wondering about how velites were used. There were relatively few Class V skirmishers in the early legion and leves in the later Livian legion, enough perhaps to form a couple of ranks. They could all throw javelins and retire through the heavies behind them before the enemy could reach them. But what about the later velites? They would form 5 ranks in a standard-sized legion. If each was armed with 3-5 missiles would they all have time to throw them in less than 18 seconds? I doubt it.
However, if the velites threw a volley then retired behind the hastati (who then doubled files from open to intermediate order), some could stand behind the hasatati whilst the rest occupied the file spaces of the principes and possibly triarii still in open order, and continue to pepper the enemy with javelins from there. Overhead missile support of HI engaged in melee was a common technique and the velites would have no trouble fulfilling the role.
Edit: some quick maths. The hastati in intermediate order at 6 ranks would be 6 meters deep. The Principes with files in open order would be 12 meters deep. The triarii also in open order would be 6 meters deep. That's a total minimum depth of 24 meters, with some extra depth between the lines. If the javelins can be thrown to 50 meters then the velites could pepper the enemy from anywhere in the legion, and if they have 3-5 javelins and only about 18 seconds in front of the legion to throw them then for sure they are doing rear-rank shooting.
QuoteThe javelin thrown without a strap seems to reach about the same distance as a pilum - 30m. With a strap the distance extends to 50-odd yards or more depending on the technique used.
For completeness, we might bring in this article (https://www.academia.edu/2631534/Recreating_the_Ancient_Greek_Javelin_Throw_How_Far_Was_the_Javelin_Thrown), which was discussed at length a few years ago here (http://soa.org.uk/sm/index.php?topic=3904.0)
On Roman velite tactics, I leave it to those fascinated by Roman Republican armies to explain what we know.
Quote from: Erpingham on April 20, 2023, 12:51:59 PMQuoteThe javelin thrown without a strap seems to reach about the same distance as a pilum - 30m. With a strap the distance extends to 50-odd yards or more depending on the technique used.
For completeness, we might bring in this article (https://www.academia.edu/2631534/Recreating_the_Ancient_Greek_Javelin_Throw_How_Far_Was_the_Javelin_Thrown), which was discussed at length a few years ago here (http://soa.org.uk/sm/index.php?topic=3904.0)
On Roman velite tactics, I leave it to those fascinated by Roman Republican armies to explain what we know.
It is a fascinating topic. Polybius (to rehash a very hashed topic) describes the legion of the Latin War thus (Histories 6:21):
QuoteThe division is made in such proportions that the senior men, called triarii, should number six hundred, the principes twelve hundred, the hastati twelve hundred, and that all the rest as the youngest should be reckoned among the velites. And if the whole number of the legion is more than four thousand, they vary the numbers of these divisions proportionally, except those of the triarii, which is always the same.
So a book strength legion of 4000 men had 1200 hastati, 1200 principes, 600 triarii and 1000 velites. Presuming it deployed 200 yards wide (I'll go into that if anyone's interested) that gives the velites a depth of 5 ranks.
The velites do not constitute separate units like the hastati, principes and triarii, but are co-opted to these latter - "the velites are divided equally among all the companies". By "equally" I think Polybius means "proportionately". Since the triarii are half the number of the hastati or principes, they get half the number of velites, thus 400 are assigned to the hastati, 400 to the principes and 200 to the triarii.
If the velites are co-opted to the units of hastati, principes and triarii they must evidently fight with these units, and Polybius confirms this:
QuoteThe youngest soldiers or Velites are ordered to carry a sword, spears, and target (parma). The target is strongly made, and large enough to protect the man; being round, with a diameter of three feet. Each man also wears a headpiece without a crest (galea); which he sometimes covers with a piece of wolfs skin or something of that kind, for the sake both of protection and identification; that the officers of his company may be able to observe whether he shows courage or the reverse on confronting dangers.
How would the velites fight with the other troops of the legion? My take is that they do so by initially throwing their javelins from those units and, later on, forming the rear ranks of those units (2 ranks each for the hastati and principes and 1 rank for the triarii), helping out in melee combat. A 3-foot wide shield "strongly made" is clearly meant for hand-to-hand fighting. And they have a sword.
From a rule writer's point of view it's interesting that there was only 50% extra throwing 'naked' as opposed to shield and armour. Depending on ground scale of your rules, that isn't a lot. In DBx it might actually be the difference in base depth between psiloi and heavy infantry 8)
40-45 years ago I was a young man just like Michael. Just like my Father before me, I inherited a fast arm and reached County Standard (so Michael is one better). However, I trained for 6 years with 6 months of each year (2 terms) dedicated to Athletics training. In the rest of the time I cycled to school every day; played rugby; had 2-3 sessions of martial arts each week; ran round my town once a week; and ate really well! At 5'7" I would put myself as good as any legionary.
The tests were pretty good mind you - my one real observation is that the mail corselet had sleeves (and a cowl), which Roman armour seemingly didn't. I believe the sleeves were particularly detrimental to Michael's thowing.
With a shield (and the rest!) and needing to work with the other 59 men of my 'fighting century' around me; especially needing to form a shield-wall before those hairy-arsed types finished their charge (or, at the beginning the hoplite/phalangite advance) - I would suggest that 50-60ft is the maximum - 20paces. I'd also expect the flight to be shallower and more aimed.
Light infantry (Velites, sic) with a lighter javelin could probably do 100% better.
M2CW
Absolutely agree about shallow throw and aiming.
The whole point of the complicated construction of a pila seems wasteful unless you are using it immediately before stick the enemy with your short sword.
Do these experiments change our modelling of pilum combat in rules? I suppose it depends on the abstractions in use, particularly if pre-contact misslry is separately handled.
One thing that Todd doesn't discuss is how the techniques used by his tester would fit into a legionary formation, as Mark H refers to above. A hard one to test perhaps, though maybe mark out the legionary's deployment space and see how it cramped the throwers style would be a first step. There were only six feet between ranks, according to Vegetius. How do you make a running throw in that? Bit more flexibility if the whole formation is moving but still constricting. Or do you only use running throws in "pilum skirmishing" when you deploy some lads outside the line, who fall back if the enemy shows signs of aggression? The latter is presumably how velites operate, though not with pila.
Quote from: Erpingham on April 21, 2023, 10:58:39 AMDo these experiments change our modelling of pilum combat in rules? I suppose it depends on the abstractions in use, particularly if pre-contact misslry is separately handled.
One thing that Todd doesn't discuss is how the techniques used by his tester would fit into a legionary formation, as Mark H refers to above. A hard one to test perhaps, though maybe mark out the legionary's deployment space and see how it cramped the throwers style would be a first step. There were only six feet between ranks, according to Vegetius. How do you make a running throw in that? Bit more flexibility if the whole formation is moving but still constricting. Or do you only use running throws in "pilum skirmishing" when you deploy some lads outside the line, who fall back if the enemy shows signs of aggression? The latter is presumably how velites operate, though not with pila.
I doubt Marian legionaries had the space to do a running throw and probably didn't need it since the initial volley would have been just before charge combat hence at short range, and rear-rank support volleys would have been short range anyway owing to the depth of the legion. Vegetius' 6 feet refers to the legion of his time which was a very different animal, having only one very long line with reserves behind the flanks and rear. Not sure how much space a legionary would need for a standing throw. Maybe 6 feet is the minimum.
Velites wouldn't have a problem. Inserted in the file spaces of the hastati, principes and triarii they had all the depth they needed, even for a short run up.
QuoteVelites wouldn't have a problem. Inserted in the file spaces of the hastati, principes and triarii they had all the depth they needed, even for a short run up.
But weren't there more than one velite per file interval? That would complicate things, especially with only about 2 ft (0.6m) width to operate in.
Quote from: Erpingham on April 21, 2023, 12:55:02 PMQuoteVelites wouldn't have a problem. Inserted in the file spaces of the hastati, principes and triarii they had all the depth they needed, even for a short run up.
But weren't there more than one velite per file interval? That would complicate things, especially with only about 2 ft (0.6m) width to operate in.
2 for the hastati, 2 for the principes and 1 for the triarii. They shouldn't have a problem. And the width of a file gap would be about 4 feet.
QuoteAnd the width of a file gap would be about 4 feet.
That's a new one on me. That would be a 10 foot frontage. So, this would be a form of extended order? Is this given in Polybius or Vegetius?
Quote from: Erpingham on April 21, 2023, 01:25:47 PMQuoteAnd the width of a file gap would be about 4 feet.
That's a new one on me. That would be a 10 foot frontage. So, this would be a form of extended order? Is this given in Polybius or Vegetius?
Each file in intermediate order is 3 feet wide (that's Polybius - I can go into it if you like). In open order each file's frontage doubles to 6 feet. A man has a shoulder width of about 16 inches. Make it 2 feet to accommodate the shield he carries at his side. 6 feet - 2 feet = 4 feet.
Quote from: Justin Swanton on April 21, 2023, 03:31:54 PMQuote from: Erpingham on April 21, 2023, 01:25:47 PMQuoteAnd the width of a file gap would be about 4 feet.
That's a new one on me. That would be a 10 foot frontage. So, this would be a form of extended order? Is this given in Polybius or Vegetius?
Each file in intermediate order is 3 feet wide (that's Polybius - I can go into it if you like). In open order each file's frontage doubles to 6 feet. A man has a shoulder width of about 16 inches. Make it 2 feet to accommodate the shield he carries at his side. 6 feet - 2 feet = 4 feet.
Makes sense, thanks. Getting confused between frontages and intervals there. So, your model sees the velites operating inside the formation, in the intervals, as opposed to deploying in front and withdrawing into the formation is the lines close?
Quote from: Erpingham on April 21, 2023, 04:11:20 PMQuote from: Justin Swanton on April 21, 2023, 03:31:54 PMQuote from: Erpingham on April 21, 2023, 01:25:47 PMQuoteAnd the width of a file gap would be about 4 feet.
That's a new one on me. That would be a 10 foot frontage. So, this would be a form of extended order? Is this given in Polybius or Vegetius?
Each file in intermediate order is 3 feet wide (that's Polybius - I can go into it if you like). In open order each file's frontage doubles to 6 feet. A man has a shoulder width of about 16 inches. Make it 2 feet to accommodate the shield he carries at his side. 6 feet - 2 feet = 4 feet.
Makes sense, thanks. Getting confused between frontages and intervals there. So, your model sees the velites operating inside the formation, in the intervals, as opposed to deploying in front and withdrawing into the formation is the lines close?
Yes. I doubt they'd have enough time to throw all their javelins before the enemy reaches them if they are throwing just from in front of the formation.
Quote from: Justin Swanton on April 21, 2023, 04:32:05 PMYes. I doubt they'd have enough time to throw all their javelins before the enemy reaches them if they are throwing just from in front of the formation.
That depends on how far in front of the formation they are and whether the enemy are able/willing to keep chasing them as they fall back.
Quote from: LawrenceG on April 22, 2023, 11:29:04 AMQuote from: Justin Swanton on April 21, 2023, 04:32:05 PMYes. I doubt they'd have enough time to throw all their javelins before the enemy reaches them if they are throwing just from in front of the formation.
That depends on how far in front of the formation they are and whether the enemy are able/willing to keep chasing them as they fall back.
Also depends who they are fighting. If they're up against hostile skirmishers rather than heavy infantry aiming to close, they could be running back and forth exchanging missiles for a long time.
Quote from: Duncan Head on April 22, 2023, 12:44:58 PMQuote from: LawrenceG on April 22, 2023, 11:29:04 AMQuote from: Justin Swanton on April 21, 2023, 04:32:05 PMYes. I doubt they'd have enough time to throw all their javelins before the enemy reaches them if they are throwing just from in front of the formation.
That depends on how far in front of the formation they are and whether the enemy are able/willing to keep chasing them as they fall back.
Also depends who they are fighting. If they're up against hostile skirmishers rather than heavy infantry aiming to close, they could be running back and forth exchanging missiles for a long time.
It seems to me that Justin is proposing a novel interpretation of the tactics of velites. Perhaps it needs a topic of its own to more fully explore?
QuoteThat depends on how far in front of the formation they are
QuoteAlso depends who they are fighting.
Both true, but it's interesting that Polybius' and Livy's hastati are armed with missile weapons (hence are capable of their own pre-charge volley) and that the Velites do not form separate units but are split between the hastati, principes and triarii. Livy in Histories 8.8 doesn't describe any separate skirmishing action in front of the line by the leves but starts straight with the hastati fighting and falling back if necessary. It's possible the leves and velites didn't stand in front of the line at all.
Quote from: Justin Swanton on April 22, 2023, 01:22:13 PMIt's possible the leves and velites didn't stand in front of the line at all.
Quote from: Polybios 3.115, on CannaeThe battle was begun by an engagement between the advanced guard of the two armies; and at first the affair between these light-armed troops (euzonoi) was indecisive. ... then the legionaries (ta pezika stratopeda) took the place of the light-armed (euzonous) and closed with the enemy.
This certainly sounds like the velites acting as entirely conventional light-armed skirmishers, deploying in front and opening the fight against the Carthaginian equivalent. I think they are far more versatile than some light infantry and this was by no means all they could do, but I have no doubt that this is how they often operated.
The question that this all begs is what difference does this make on the table-top battlefield? It is clear from ancient accounts that skirmishers often engaged the enemy in advance of the main battle line. The two main lines of Infantry then come together and this begs the question where do the skirmishers go? One can imagine the Romans and similar being trained to open ranks in some way to let them through as envisioned by some above - but what about less well drilled armies? Again one imagines that Roman units had some gaps between sections that might provide a 'route out' but again less disciplined armies might not. There is no mention that I know of where these lightly armoured chaps become 'squished' between the main infantry lines. Therefore they surely must have been able to move through to avoid this fate. Yet am I wrong in thinking that in most (certainly not all) rule systems you are penalised (or pay points towards the ability to avoid) moving one unit through another?
In a recent clashes between Boudicca and the Romans using HC Rob and I decided that both sides slingers could move back through (or be moved over by) an identified 'parent unit' without penalty and that seemed to work well. Interestingly for the javelin armed units this is much less useful because their range is too short to be able to make 'closing shots' in HC - perhaps both would benefit from being able to shoot and flee as a charge response. [the Parthians have their Parthian Shot rule as a clear difference to other units]
Quote from: Justin Swanton on April 22, 2023, 01:22:13 PMLivy in Histories 8.8 doesn't describe any separate skirmishing action in front of the line by the leves but starts straight with the hastati fighting and falling back if necessary. It's possible the leves and velites didn't stand in front of the line at all.
The other possibility is even harder to model if we have to think about mixed units with the velites etc. throwing out of the main battle line. How do others deal with this if trying to refight a known battle where light troops are known to have had a role?
Quote from: Duncan Head on April 22, 2023, 01:36:51 PMQuote from: Justin Swanton on April 22, 2023, 01:22:13 PMIt's possible the leves and velites didn't stand in front of the line at all.
Quote from: Polybios 3.115, on CannaeThe battle was begun by an engagement between the advanced guard of the two armies; and at first the affair between these light-armed troops (euzonoi) was indecisive. ... then the legionaries (ta pezika stratopeda) took the place of the light-armed (euzonous) and closed with the enemy.
This certainly sounds like the velites acting as entirely conventional light-armed skirmishers, deploying in front and opening the fight against the Carthaginian equivalent. I think they are far more versatile than some light infantry and this was by no means all they could do, but I have no doubt that this is how they often operated.
Could Polybius have taken the trouble to describe this because it was a bit unusual? If it was absolutely standard for velites to deploy and operate in front of the main lines then why describe it? In this case the velites would have been necessary as a screen against the Carthaginian skirmishers, but when dealing with more conventional enemies like Gauls, would they have done this? I'm not in guru mode BTW, just speculating.
I don't see the Gauls as "more conventional", but as the exception; not only Carthaginian but Italian, Hellenistic and Spanish armies would surely have substantial numbers of skirmishers.
It's possible that the skirmish phase at Cannae lasted longer than usual, in that P implies that it went on until the cavalry fight was over (was that Hannibal's intention?), but I doubt that it was in itself unusual.
QuoteThe question that this all begs is what difference does this make on the table-top battlefield? It is clear from ancient accounts that skirmishers often engaged the enemy in advance of the main battle line. The two main lines of Infantry then come together and this begs the question where do the skirmishers go? One can imagine the Romans and similar being trained to open ranks in some way to let them through as envisioned by some above - but what about less well drilled armies? Again one imagines that Roman units had some gaps between sections that might provide a 'route out' but again less disciplined armies might not. There is no mention that I know of where these lightly armoured chaps become 'squished' between the main infantry lines. Therefore they surely must have been able to move through to avoid this fate. Yet am I wrong in thinking that in most (certainly not all) rule systems you are penalised (or pay points towards the ability to avoid) moving one unit through another?
Onasander covers this:
QuoteThere should be intervals [διαστήματα - diastemata, which means 'gaps' in this context] within the ranks [κατὰ τὰς τάξεις - kata tas taxeis; in this context kata means 'throughout'; taxeis in the plural applied to a single phalanx line means 'ranks'], so that, when the lightarmed troops have discharged their weapons while the enemy is still advancing, before the two armies come to close quarters, they may about-face, pass in good order through the centre of the phalanx, and come without confusion to the rear. For it is not safe for them to go around the whole army, encircling the flanks—since the enemy would quickly anticipate them in this manoeuvre, coming to close quarters and intercepting them on the way—nor is it safe for them to force their way through the closed ranks, where they would fall over the weapons and cause confusion in the lines, one man stumbling against another. - Strategikos: 19.1
In wargaming terms, LI that shoot at enemy from within or behind HI should be treated similar to hamappoi and give the HI the same modifier that LI give Cav stands. Simplest solution.
Quote from: Duncan Head on April 22, 2023, 03:00:11 PMI don't see the Gauls as "more conventional", but as the exception; not only Carthaginian but Italian, Hellenistic and Spanish armies would surely have substantial numbers of skirmishers.
It's possible that the skirmish phase at Cannae lasted longer than usual, in that P implies that it went on until the cavalry fight was over (was that Hannibal's intention?), but I doubt that it was in itself unusual.
Sure. I just find it curious that if that was the only way velites were used with HI why don't they form separate units but instead are co-pted to the maniples of the heavies - whose commanders keep an eye on how they are fighting? Also, why are the hastati armed the same way they are, implying the hastati do their own volleying of the enemy when the moment is right? I'm thinking there was a good deal of flexibility in how velites were used - they could have been initially all deployed in the front, especially to screen against a considerable number of enemy lights, but they could also have supplied overhead missile support from within the legion. We know they did act as hamappoi.
Subsequent legionaries of the Marian legion were all armed with pila even though most of them were not in a position to ever use them in the front ranks, implying they used them as rear-rank missile support. The late legion clearly used rear-rank missile support, possibly a carry-over from earlier legions. Speculation hat still firmly on.
QuoteSure. I just find it curious that if that was the only way velites were used with HI why don't they form separate units but instead are co-pted to the maniples of the heavies - whose commanders keep an eye on how they are fighting?
Why would each line retain its own skirmishers, rather than deploying all skirmishers to the fore before the main battlelines clash? Did they have organic light infantry for when operating alone but brigade them into a skirmish line when fighting with the rest of the legion?
Quote from: Justin Swanton on April 22, 2023, 03:00:55 PMOnasander covers this:
QuoteThere should be intervals [διαστήματα - diastemata, which means 'gaps' in this context] within the ranks [κατὰ τὰς τάξεις - kata tas taxeis; in this context kata means 'throughout'; taxeis in the plural applied to a single phalanx line means 'ranks'], so that, when the lightarmed troops have discharged their weapons while the enemy is still advancing, before the two armies come to close quarters, they may about-face, pass in good order through the centre of the phalanx, and come without confusion to the rear. For it is not safe for them to go around the whole army, encircling the flanks—since the enemy would quickly anticipate them in this manoeuvre, coming to close quarters and intercepting them on the way—nor is it safe for them to force their way through the closed ranks, where they would fall over the weapons and cause confusion in the lines, one man stumbling against another. - Strategikos: 19.1
Now that is interesting it does imply that skirmishes were 'supposed' to be able to retreat without hindrance or hindering the HI behind them through the gaps between the files. It is also annoyingly vague. Is this a general gap between each and every file or only a smaller number of channels to alow the HI to maintain a closer order?
Quote from: Ian61 on April 22, 2023, 04:47:38 PMNow that is interesting it does imply that skirmishes were 'supposed' to be able to retreat without hindrance or hindering the HI behind them through the gaps between the files. It is also annoyingly vague. Is this a general gap between each and every file or only a smaller number of channels to alow the HI to maintain a closer order?
The tacticians describe the different ways light troops could be deployed with heavies:
QuoteThe light infantry and targeteers will be stationed by the general as the situation demands, sometimes before the line of battle, sometimes behind it, and on other occasions now on the right flank and again on the left; the first is called van position (protaxis), the second rear-position (hypotaxis), and the third flank-position (prosentaxis). Sometimes they are incorporated in the phalanx and stationed one beside each man; and this is called insert-position (parentaxis), because there is an insertion of different branches of the service, e.g., light infantry with hoplites - Asklepiodotus, 6:1
QuoteParembolē [παρεμβολή] is the term employed when the men from the rearward ranks are inserted into the intervals between the men occupying the front ranks.
Protaxis [πρόταξις] describes the positioning of the light-armed troops in front of the armed infantry who make up the phalanx. The repositioned light troops then assume the role of file-leaders, or protostatae.
Epitaxis [ἐπίταξις] is the reverse of the protaxis and means the positioning behind of those who would normally be at the front.
Prostaxis [πρόσταξις] is the word used to describe the positioning of troops to either wing or to both of them, with the original line of the front being preserved. The other name for the prostaxis deployment of the phalanx is proentaxis [πρόενταξις].
Entaxis [ἔνταξις] occurs when it is considered appropriate to insert the light armed infantry into the intervals between each man of the phalanx. - Aelian, 30
Quote[They call it] and adjoinment whenever a [light] troop from both parts or one of the formation is attached to the phalanx along the length of the formation's "forehead." They name it a [light] insertion when they place lightly armed men into the intervals [between] hoplites, one man standing along [another] man. [They name it] a [subordinate] deployment whenever someone arrays the lightly armed under the phalanx's edges as into a bent [formation]. - Arrian, 26
What is clear is that when deployed within a formation of heavies, the light troops occupied the space between each file of heavies. The heavy troops are hence in open order, each file occupying a frontage of about 2 yards, with about 4 feet between the shoulders of men in adjacent files. This is how the heavy infantry would be deployed when Onasander's LI fell back through them (since the tacticians describe no other way HI would create spaces for LI to fall back through).
Quote from: Duncan Head on April 22, 2023, 03:00:11 PMI don't see the Gauls as "more conventional", but as the exception; not only Carthaginian but Italian, Hellenistic and Spanish armies would surely have substantial numbers of skirmishers.
The Livian legion (which certainly had to deal with Italian opponents) had only 300 leves. That would form a thin line 1-2 ranks deep if deployed in intermediate order. But that, apparently, was enough for a skirmish screen. If the velites are split proportionately between the hastati, principes and triarii, then the hastati get 400, enough to form a skirmish screen 2 ranks deep - pretty much the equivalent of the former leves. Would the Romans have felt the need to put
all the velites in front of the legion, at least in a standard situation?
One could argue that Cannae wasn't standard in that the Roman infantry were deployed in unusual depth, too deep for velites further back to be able to reach with their javelins the enemy engaged in front of the legion. Rather than leave them deployed uselessly within the legion, it makes more sense to deploy them all in front and use them to damage the enemy's lights as much as possible, and maybe even the heavies if the lights can be driven off.
Quote from: Justin Swanton on April 23, 2023, 08:36:48 AMThe Livian legion (which certainly had to deal with Italian opponents) had only 300 leves.
There were also (if we believe Livy's account of the 4th-century legion, which many do not) the rorarii; who seem to have been administratively attached to the rear lines, yet, we are told, opened the battle as skirmishers:
"Rorarios milites vocabant, qui leui armature primi praelium committebant..." (Festus)
"Rorarii, dicti ab rore qui bellum committebant, ideo quod ante rorat quam pluit." (Varro)
Perhaps little had changed except names?
Quote from: Duncan Head on April 23, 2023, 12:39:32 PMQuote from: Justin Swanton on April 23, 2023, 08:36:48 AMThe Livian legion (which certainly had to deal with Italian opponents) had only 300 leves.
There were also (if we believe Livy's account of the 4th-century legion, which many do not) the rorarii; who seem to have been administratively attached to the rear lines, yet, we are told, opened the battle as skirmishers:
"Rorarios milites vocabant, qui leui armature primi praelium committebant..." (Festus)
"Rorarii, dicti ab rore qui bellum committebant, ideo quod ante rorat quam pluit." (Varro)
Perhaps little had changed except names?
Very good point.