The Khitan ordo cavalry equipment list is usually given as:
"3 horses, 1 forager, 1 orderly, 9 pieces of iron armour, saddle cloths, bridles, armour of leather and iron according to their strength, 4 bows, 400 arrows, a long and a short spear, a club (probably a mace), axe, halberd, small banner, hammer, awl, knife and flint, bucket for the horse, bag for dried food, a grappling hook, a felt umbrella, and 200 foot of rope to tie horses."
Does anyone know what word is used that gets translated as "halberd" or any suggestions as to what it actually was?
Don't know about the halberd, but the list of equipment is missing gaffer tape. How do the Khitan fix all that stuff?
Seriously, Slingshot needs an article on how the Khitan equipped themselves and did reality live up to theory?
I used to see a lot of Khitan armies under older WRG army lists and many of them beat my Galatians to a pulp. But seriously, my guys only have a sword or spear and no clothes so decision making is easy, Khitan have so many choices they must be confused?
Quote from: stevenneate on April 03, 2025, 11:17:32 AMSeriously, Slingshot needs an article on how the Khitan equipped themselves and did reality live up to theory?
I used to see a lot of Khitan armies under older WRG army lists and many of them beat my Galatians to a pulp. But seriously, my guys only have a sword or spear and no clothes so decision making is easy, Khitan have so many choices they must be confused?
Each Khitan horseman has his own individual caddie who hands him the appropriate weapon without him having to stop and think about it
Quote from: nikgaukroger on April 03, 2025, 09:18:49 AM.................
Does anyone know what word is used that gets translated as "halberd" or any suggestions as to what it actually was?
I don't, but I'm guessing it's similar to the weapon used by the Han "halberd-armed" cavalry.
According to this paper (https://www.atlantis-press.com/article/125957556.pdf) the "halberds" of Song cavalry were broad-headed lances. It doesn't say explicitly, but the implication seems to be that the Kitans' "halberds" were the same.
Quote from: Jim Webster on April 03, 2025, 12:21:26 PMQuote from: stevenneate on April 03, 2025, 11:17:32 AMSeriously, Slingshot needs an article on how the Khitan equipped themselves and did reality live up to theory?
I used to see a lot of Khitan armies under older WRG army lists and many of them beat my Galatians to a pulp. But seriously, my guys only have a sword or spear and no clothes so decision making is easy, Khitan have so many choices they must be confused?
Each Khitan horseman has his own individual caddie who hands him the appropriate weapon without him having to stop and think about it
Well, the equipment list includes a forager and an orderly ...
It has, of course, been suggested that the lst of equipment includes the battlefield kit of these 2 as well.
Quote from: Denis Grey on April 03, 2025, 12:55:58 PMQuote from: nikgaukroger on April 03, 2025, 09:18:49 AM.................
Does anyone know what word is used that gets translated as "halberd" or any suggestions as to what it actually was?
I don't, but I'm guessing it's similar to the weapon used by the Han "halberd-armed" cavalry.
I don't think those are right for the Han cavalry anyway. IIRC they used the "ji" which is a dagger-axe/spear combo - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ji_(polearm)
I have consulted the oracle and been given the following advice -
"Seems like that specific formulation comes from only one website so I can't track down the original source at all, but I would surmise that it might be referring to a later evolution of the 'dagger-axe', either the hook-spear on the far left of fig. 1, or either of fig. 2"
image 2.jpg. Figure 1
image.jpg. Figure 2
Thanks ;D
I've always felt the "hook spear" may be the most likely, but only on gut feel basis.
Quote from: nikgaukroger on April 03, 2025, 02:30:47 PMQuote from: Denis Grey on April 03, 2025, 12:55:58 PMQuote from: nikgaukroger on April 03, 2025, 09:18:49 AM.................
Does anyone know what word is used that gets translated as "halberd" or any suggestions as to what it actually was?
I don't, but I'm guessing it's similar to the weapon used by the Han "halberd-armed" cavalry.
I don't think those are right for the Han cavalry anyway. IIRC they used the "ji" which is a dagger-axe/spear combo - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ji_(polearm)
I feared that might be the case, but I'm rather fond of the figures, so I shan't be replacing them.
Acc'd the WP page, weapons like the LH one in Fig. 2 were called ji in Song times, which word is usually translated as "halberd".
For a wider range of examples to fuel the imagination, wiki has a page on Chinese polearms (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_polearm). Quite an extensive bibliography but really only two books provide the cited evidence.
Quote from: Keraunos on April 03, 2025, 03:29:10 PMI have consulted the oracle and been given the following advice -
"Seems like that specific formulation comes from only one website so I can't track down the original source at all,
The source of the equipment list is the Liao Shi (via Wittfogel and Feng "History of Chinese Society Liao, 907-1125")
Graff (Medieval Chinese Warfare, 300-900) mentions on p.41 the changeover from the Ji to simpler spears and lances by the end of the Eastern Han period but does not reference it.
He describes it as a "long-handled weapon with several blades that was used as much for hooking as for thrusting".
Funnily enough, I only just read this when I posted, as Graff is the book I took away for the 4-day weekend I'm on in the back of beyond.
OK, comparing Wittfogel & Feng's translation with the Liao Shi text at https://chinesenotes.com/liaoshi/liaoshi034.html, putting the relevant paragraph in Google Translate and using the latter's dictionary to clarify the meanings of individual words, I think the character translated "halberd" is yue .
The situation is slightly complicated (for people like me with no command of Chinese) by the fact that the text has two characters 斧 鉞 fu yue, both meaning "axe", together. The Liao Shi online text makes it look as if these two characters form one word, whereas W&F, in the bit of the list translated as "axe, halberd", seem to be translating fu as axe and yue as halberd. In classical Zhou sources, where these two words are first encountered, they usually indicate two different kinds of axe, yue being used for larger blades and sometimes translated broad-axe or battle-axe.
Short conclusion: someone should point a Chinese speaker at the Liao Shi text, but I think we are dealing with a word more related to axe than to spear.
The oracle - my son, a chinese reader & speaker and current researcher into Qing history - provides the following:
The Liao Shi does indeed render the two characters as the single phrase 斧鉞 fuyue, but as Classical Chinese texts were not usually punctuated, there is no particular reason to assume either way as to whether these were supposed to be two separate words or a compound. There also seem to be two slightly different definitions: one which specifically denotes a form of heavy battle-axe, and another where it refers more generally to all sorts of axe-like weapons. Either way, it would seem that the term translated 'halberd' by Wittfogel and Feng perhaps should have been grouped with the preceding one instead of taken in isolation, and that the Liao cavalryman was expected to possess some form of battleaxe.
I hope this is helpful.
Thanks, Kim, that is helpful.
I've just found a Wikipedia reference to the combination "fuyue" being used in martial arts contexts for halberd - "Fuyue (halberds of various types) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xingyiquan)". There are other references to the compound term - as a symbol of Imperial-derived authority in both ancient (http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Zhou/zhou-military.html) and late-Imperial (https://journals.openedition.org/extremeorient/601) periods. This reinforces the idea that we're probably looking at one word, though doesn't help much as to what the weapon actually looked like.
drawn in by "...current researcherinto Quing history..."
organisation, equipment, deployment of non banner troops is sparse, should a research field be needed. :-)
A couple of caveats..
Yue is commonly used in the histories and the encyclopedias. It typically refers to polearms in general and is the usual term for those weilded by guards and household troops.
I think that this text, written in the Yuan dynasty, was lifted from a Liao or Jin source. It's clearly a list of items and probaby this element refers to a hand axe and a polearm. That said I would futher suggest that a polearm would be for dismounted use whe on guard or in a fortification.
Tom..
Quote from: Duncan Head on April 15, 2025, 11:49:35 AMThanks, Kim, that is helpful.
I've just found a Wikipedia reference to the combination "fuyue" being used in martial arts contexts for halberd - "Fuyue (halberds of various types) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xingyiquan)". There are other references to the compound term - as a symbol of Imperial-derived authority in both ancient (http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Zhou/zhou-military.html) and late-Imperial (https://journals.openedition.org/extremeorient/601) periods. This reinforces the idea that we're probably looking at one word, though doesn't help much as to what the weapon actually looked like.
I would be careful of material drawn from martial arts traditions. Much of this, as in Japan, is drawn from 19th century nationalist ideas rather than having any basis in older history.
Quote from: tadamson on April 15, 2025, 01:42:48 PMdrawn in by "...current researcherinto Quing history..."
organisation, equipment, deployment of non banner troops is sparse, should a research field be needed. :-)
That may be forthcoming, though as a side interest rather than part of the main research. A little patience will be needed as he is only in the first year of the PhD course and seems to have set aside his painting of Qing armies for tanks at the moment :-\
Had a think..
fu - originaly 'battle-axe' by the time of the Liao Shi also used as a generic axe.
yue - the shou yuan (western Han) specificaly says it's an axe with a long handle.
(there was some confusion in early commentators as to which, fu or yue, had the long or short wooden handle)
fuyue - as a compound word, modern romantisied stuff (think Victorian names for European polearms).