I don't think we had this interesting 2019 article available the last time we went over this ground:
https://helenskestudije.me/ojs/index.php/jhs/article/view/41/29
I'm tempted to suggest that the South African author has been talking to Justin.
;D
The History department of the University of KwaZulu-Natal is based in Durban, so who knows?
Hey! He pinched all my ideas! If I see him I'll moer him.
Well at least somebody out there agrees with me...
Nice find. 'Akropolis' appears to be a Serbian Journal of Hellenic Studies. (ETA - or Montenegran since it's .me)
Of course it doesn't really change where we are at, since the high guard has always been an option (only Matthew AFAIK claims it's impossible), it's just an option without any positive evidence. This guy has at least mustered a phalanx of two men, which is one more than anyone else has managed, and I think his case is generally compelling, but I do wish he had tried other techniques as well (such as angled shields), rather than just trying to prove one thing possible which almost nobody doubts.
Quote from: RichT on June 03, 2020, 03:29:40 PMOf course it doesn't really change where we are at, since the high guard has always been an option
True enough. And we (think that we) know from the Pergamon plaque that the low hold was used at least some of the time - du Plessis doesn't mention that source - so if the high hold was indeed used, it would presumably only be for the one-cubit order.
Apologies for my ignorance, but what was the Pergamon plague?
Richard
Quote from: lionheartrjc on June 04, 2020, 11:35:59 AM
Apologies for my ignorance, but what was the Pergamon plague?
https://bookandsword.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/conze_1913-bd_1-text_2-pg_251.png
https://www.academia.edu/6618284/The_Attalid_Victory_at_Magnesia_on_a_Lost_Plaque_from_Pergamon
Quote from: lionheartrjc on June 04, 2020, 11:35:59 AM
Apologies for my ignorance, but what was the Pergamon plague?
Richard
A very bad bug in Asia Minor. ;)
Alternately, it's this:
(https://i.imgur.com/xrsp348.png)
A bronze plaque found at Pergamon in the 19th century, from which this drawing was made, and subsequently lost during WW2. It probably depicts the moment at the battle of Magnesia when the Attalid cavalry rode to the aid of the Roman legionaries confronting the Seleucid phalanx. Plenty of bunfights over it in this forum.
Edit: crossposted with Duncan.
Quote from: Duncan Head on June 04, 2020, 10:10:56 AM
Quote from: RichT on June 03, 2020, 03:29:40 PMOf course it doesn't really change where we are at, since the high guard has always been an option
True enough. And we (think that we) know from the Pergamon plaque that the low hold was used at least some of the time - du Plessis doesn't mention that source - so if the high hold was indeed used, it would presumably only be for the one-cubit order.
It is interesting to note in regard to this that the position the article posits, with the front arm raised would result in the pelta being in the somewhat odd position seen on the Pergamon plaque if you drop the hand down. For anyone who has formed up with Renaissance pike held this way, is there an "at ease" position with the point lowered and the arm dropped?
Hi Michael
Here is "Posing, Posturing & Positioning for the Perfect Pike-operative" From The Blew Regiment
London Trayned Bandes
https://www.blews-ltb.co.uk/pike-drill
From my own very limited experience, the 'at ease' positions involve the pike vertical. Apparently you could tell how green an opposing pike unit was because of the way the individual pikes waved about
That was a very good read. Thanks Duncan.
QuoteFrom my own very limited experience, the 'at ease' positions involve the pike vertical.
Certainly true of Dutch drill from the late 16th century onwards - everything starts by lifting pike hand-over-hand until the right hand holds the pike butt, then you can shoulder it or drop it down to a port or charge. Hellenistic drill must have been different, as they held their pikes well forward of the butt.
George Silver describes a position for pike fencing where the point is on the ground and the rear end is raised - the idea is to rapidly raise the pike under your opponents weapon, thus exposing him to a follow through thrust, if I understand rightly. But this is a single combat move for pike foyning, not a collective drill move.
Interestingly, 15th century Italian
lanza longa technique did have an at rest position holding the butt with the point down.
(https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b525024658/f7.highres)
Obviously, the scale is condensed but the spearmen are resting their pikes while the skirmishers are skirmishing, able to raise them rapidly if the enemy advances. Note the ranks further back have raised
lanze, as you'd expect.
Another interesting point for the Pergamon plaque that the Galatian horsemen appears to be nude. Now is that just a convention for Galatians? I have been told that riding a horse naked is not something a boy should do.
Roy
Clearly it can be done!
https://thegailygrind.com/2014/04/12/attention-nude-sports-enthusiasts-watch-naked-man-ride-horse-bareback/
Roy
Quote from: aligern on September 14, 2020, 05:51:15 PM
Clearly it can be done!
https://thegailygrind.com/2014/04/12/attention-nude-sports-enthusiasts-watch-naked-man-ride-horse-bareback/
Roy
Because he's riding without a saddle, he seems to be using his knees to brace himself, and that might allow him to keep just above the horse's back.
Dunno, but I'm not trying it.
I suspect he's an excellent horseman