Here is an interesting video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfgMfSZiQSU) from the irrepressable Tod Todeschini, who has been playing with plumbata. I think it is fair to say, like many of Tod's "experiments", it's less than scientific but does explore some interesting questions eg how did you throw them? My own view is you'd throw them like short javelins but you can see what Tod found out in the video.
The problem with underarm is what are the back rankers meant to do. An underarm throw being carried out in a stationary position would mean a large separation between ranks and a very weak formation. It might be less efficient to throw overarm, but the number of ranks able to throw more than makes up for that. Tod8s demonstration misses out the fact that the Romans will be in formation several ranks deep and that the enemy will be moving quite rapidly towards the Romans who havevto loose off missiles and then brace and take up spear or sword to engage inbhandvto hand. Researching theblongest throw or deepest penetration matters less than rate of fire and the volune of darts a formation can deliver.
Roy
Quote from: Erpingham on November 16, 2020, 02:10:05 PM
Here is an interesting [urlhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfgMfSZiQSU]video[/url] from the irrepressable Tod Todeschini, who has been playing with plumbata. I think it is fair to say, like many of Tod's "experiments", it's less than scientific but does explore some interesting questions eg how did you throw them? My own view is you'd throw them like short javelins but you can see what Tod found out in the video.
Interesting, I think you'd use different techniques for the different targets. If horse archers optimise their shooting from 40 yards then an underhand throw could probably drop darts down in among the horses.
Goading an enemy to charge, underhand again, to get stuff raining down on them. I suppose at close range your last one could go in overarm like a dart, but the guys behind would probably still throw them underarm to drop into the massed ranks as they close
I agree Roy. Tod's experiment doesn't consider the context of use. He correctly suggests they would be used as the enemy closed but not what the Romans would be doing at the time. At the very least they'd be in close order or, if they were like Byzantines, locked shield order. Where would the room for the underarm throw come from? A flat throw over the shield, with subsequent ranks taking a slightly more parabolic shot from ranks behind the first seems to make better use of available "firepower".
not convinced by his methods or context as you put it...the devil is in the detail as they say
This (https://www.academia.edu/42176281/Re_Testing_Plumbatae_Setting_the_Record_Straight_via_Experience_Experimentation_and_the_Examination_of_Historical_Sources)is an amusing paper on throwing plumbatae - if a bit of a rant on occasion. He thoroughly trashes almost all previous attempts, because Europeans can't throw, and because both the weapon design and the throwing technique are inaccurate. And then bases his conclusion on throwing techniques which look impractical for men holding shields and standing in close formation, let alone halted to receive a cavalry charge...
Europeans can't throw?
And which continent produces people which can?
QuoteEuropeans can't throw?
Examination of the javelin records on wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javelin_throw) suggests this isn't true in the modern era - the great majority of records and Olympic medals have gone to Europeans. Presumably, the author holds this was not the case in antiquity.
I beg to differ there.
Clearly almost all of the Olympic winners in the ancient era were also European, nay mostly Greek at that!
Quote from: Erpingham on November 17, 2020, 05:33:39 PM
QuoteEuropeans can't throw?
Examination of the javelin records on wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javelin_throw) suggests this isn't true in the modern era - the great majority of records and Olympic medals have gone to Europeans. Presumably, the author holds this was not the case in antiquity.
Don't forget that 'antiquity' has a different meaning on the other side of the pond. I mean, when the beginning of the world only happened in 1776, antiquity probably means anything before Donald.
Also, if Charlie don't surf (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LztWlsHcivk), why should Europeans be able to throw? ;)
this reminds me of the film "White Men Cant Jump"
so presumably European Men (from Antiquity) Cant Throw (Plumbata)....but that's not as snappy a title :(
Quote from: Holly on November 18, 2020, 01:27:19 PM
so presumably European Men (from Antiquity) Cant Throw (Plumbata)
But who else was throwing plumbata in antiquity?
Quote from: Erpingham on November 18, 2020, 01:44:01 PM
Quote from: Holly on November 18, 2020, 01:27:19 PM
so presumably European Men (from Antiquity) Cant Throw (Plumbata)
But who else was throwing plumbata in antiquity?
ah well, that's just it. The White Men Cant Jump was a movie about hustling people because they thought Woody Harrelson could play street basketball whereas in fact he was very good at it. Presumably the Roman Army just put out misinformation about facing Plumbata in battle
"Those German recruits are absolutely rubbish at throwing darts. Its a shame we havent got a load of Aboriginal Tribesmen who are absolutely brilliant at it in our ranks"
Quote from: Duncan Head on November 16, 2020, 09:02:28 PM
This (https://www.academia.edu/42176281/Re_Testing_Plumbatae_Setting_the_Record_Straight_via_Experience_Experimentation_and_the_Examination_of_Historical_Sources)is an amusing paper on throwing plumbatae - if a bit of a rant on occasion. He thoroughly trashes almost all previous attempts, because Europeans can't throw, and because both the weapon design and the throwing technique are inaccurate. And then bases his conclusion on throwing techniques which look impractical for men holding shields and standing in close formation, let alone halted to receive a cavalry charge...
That "paper" even has oblique Star Wars references in it!
And did you see how far they were throwing them? 90m??
My nephew turned up with one to a family picnic.
OK, it was a modern toy made of plastic and rubber, but the design and size was much the same. Except it had no barb and the 'lead' was more conical, made of hard plastic and at the front with a whistle built in so that it would scream when flying through the air.
You'd hold it just behind/touching the 'lead' and impart rifling spin on it to increase range / stability as you threw it overarm.
If somebody handed me his repop Roman darts I'd throw it the same way.
David F Brown
Quote from: evilgong on December 14, 2020, 10:55:51 PM
My nephew turned up with one to a family picnic.
my kind of picnic! :)