No, I'm not talking about pachyderm pregnancy problems.
Whilst idly reading through some siege rules, I came across the paragraph that allows one to determine how many times an elephant needs to head-butt a fortified gate before it succeeds in splintering it. Respecting the erudition of the author, I am sure this is based upon diligent historical research. However, being a complete peasant, I cannot find any references to such events.
Can anyone think of any examples of elephants knocking down big wooden doors to cities, towns or fortresses?
???
QuoteNo, I'm not talking about pachyderm pregnancy problems.
Weirdly, my instant thought was whales breaching and for a split second imagined elephants leaping in the air . Thankfully, the thought quickly passed :)
That was my thought too.
I can't call to mind any ancient examples (Pyrrhus took elephants to his attacks on Sparta and Argos, but they didn't knock down any gates). However, in India elephants were used, I believe, against gates - out of period example, Siege of Arcot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Arcot). Gates sometimes had spikes to counter this.
(Incidentally that Wikipedia page appears to have been written by a Victorian. Clive would not normally win quite such enthusiastic approval.)
Quote(Incidentally that Wikipedia page appears to have been written by a Victorian. Clive would not normally win quite such enthusiastic approval.)
This could be related to the sources used. The curse of Wikipedia - why use modern scholarship when there are so many scanned Victorian books on line? W.H. Davenport Adams and G.A. Henty were scarcely the most critical even of Victorian authors.
having watched too many SWAT films I knew it was about breaking in but weirdly in tac gear
Quote from: RichT on July 31, 2021, 05:19:20 PMHowever, in India elephants were used, I believe, against gates - out of period example, Siege of Arcot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Arcot). Gates sometimes had spikes to counter this.
Certainly
Arthashastra includes "destruction of walls, gates and towers" among the things that "constitute the work of elephants".
I suspect that the problem is that the authorities who wrote about elephants breaching doors weren't to interested in the vulgar details of power to weight ratios.
My suspicion is that it would have to hit the door/gate a number of times because frankly if the elephant can go through it first time, somebody hasn't even been trying.
The problem is that there are so many variables. Are you breaking one beam that is 'locking' the gate? Two? Or actually are you ripping the metal brackets that the beam rests in out of the door?
My guess is that he's put in something that seemed sensible at the time
Quote from: RichT on July 31, 2021, 05:19:20 PM
I can't call to mind any ancient examples (Pyrrhus took elephants to his attacks on Sparta and Argos, but they didn't knock down any gates). However, in India elephants were used, I believe, against gates - out of period example, Siege of Arcot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Arcot). Gates sometimes had spikes to counter this.
Thanks Rich. Of course, at Arcot the elephants were pretty ineffective, being driven off not so much by spikes on the door as the well-aimed musket and artillery fire of the defenders. Something similar appears to have happened at the siege of Amida in 359 AD (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Amida_(359)). However, I am more interested in examples of elephants being used
successfully as siege weapons.
It looks like I shall have to make my own search of the accounts to find suitable instances. :( :( :(
Herd of elephants break open the gates at a Coimbatore School (https://www.financialexpress.com/india-news/herd-of-elephants-break-open-the-gates-at-a-coimbatore-school/575529/)
Probably not a fortified gate, though.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Philip-Rance/publication/270482030_Elephants_in_Warfare_in_Late_Antiquity/links/56895a8208ae051f9af76fed/Elephants-in-Warfare-in-Late-Antiquity.pdf?origin=publication_detail
Is of interest as I recall
Roy
Gates on Indian fortresses had 'elephant spikes' fitted (still visible today), to deter nellies from just such activity. Nasty lookin things (the spikes, that is....).
The Philip Rance article does not really add anything IMO. I mean, it mentions numerous sources that talk of elephants being used in sieges, but mainly as transport or occasionally as shooting platforms that were somewhat taller than the walls. It also notes several methods for countering elephants either on the battlefield or in sieges. However, I could not find any specific examples of elephants breaking down gates, etc. (Admittedly, I may have missed any such mention in my manual reading of the paper - the PDF appears to have been garbled to prevent word searches.)
Regarding anti-elephant spikes on Indian fortress gates, I believe these are one of those things like torpedo nets on early battleships that are relatively cheap and might even work in some circumstances, but in the meantime are simply very visible as a countermeasure. I mean, at Arcot, it is mentioned that the elephants were fitted with steel armour plates to foil exactly this defence and it was not spikes that drove off the elephants, but well-aimed musketry.
Many siege accounts are quite explicit about the location and method by which the besiegers gained entry. I find it curious that no one appears to mention gate-busting by elephants, which would surely have been worth reporting in the best traditions of tabloid journalism.
I don't have any more concrete examples to offer, and Google suggests that most online discussion of elephants v. gates is in the context of (video) games, especially Total War.
However this passage (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-5RHK4Ol15QC&pg=PA192&lpg=PA192&dq=elephants+gates+siege+spikes&source=bl&ots=domWyocI_p&sig=ACfU3U1EA_LtzCuBTgaWiM-IxEQZFsj1cg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDjcfK_JHyAhWaOsAKHR0DCAsQ6AEwEXoECB8QAw#v=onepage&q=elephants%20gates%20siege%20spikes&f=false), from Kistler, War Elephants is slightly more helpful. Note elephant-borne battering ram, rather than elephant as battering ram.
If it was traditional practice to put anti-elephant spikes on gates it does suggest it was traditional to be afraid that elephants could push open gates. How justified that fear was it seems hard to say.
Of course if most gates had spikes, then elephants would rarely if ever have been able to push open gates (without special additional methods). Like a successful deterrent, it may be that spikes ensured that anti-gate elephants were never used (hardly ever).
Interesting passage. Do you know the reference from which Kistler is quoting?
I like the comment on the apparent ineffectiveness (or possible absence) of gate spikes. This supports my view of this particular deterrent.
I don't know the primary source references no - the footnotes (7 and 8 ) are to modern works - Muhammed Nazim, The Life and Times of Sultan Mahmud of Ghazna and Bosworth, The Ghaznavids.
This is way outside my period though so I think I should back away cautiously at this point.
Quote from: Erpingham on July 31, 2021, 05:07:27 PM
QuoteNo, I'm not talking about pachyderm pregnancy problems.
Weirdly, my instant thought was whales breaching and for a split second imagined elephants leaping in the air . Thankfully, the thought quickly passed :)
There is a precedent...sort of...
(https://i.imgur.com/Rsofafl.png)
Inspired to venture into unfamiliar territory of Ghaznavid elephants, I found a mention of Sultan Mahmud capturing a fort with elephants smashing the gates in 1002 in this article
https://www.jstor.org/stable/44156208 . p.215
It does give different references to those mentioned by Richard, though forgets to fully define them, just giving author name.
In this case, the elephant destroys the gate with its "teeth" .
The one other incident which occurs to me is Perdikkas' failed attack on Ptolemy at the Fort of the Camels, as per Diodorus. Unsuccessful, and the description is of the elephants being used to assault the walls rather than gates. Nor is it clear what was the nature of the fort and its defences - was it primarily a wooden palisade, in which case the use of elephants against them would seem much more credible? Diodorus talks of the elephants destroying the wall/palisade, but the attack was in combination with an escalade, so it could be more that they were being used in place of siege towers (given it was a hasty assault) to clear / distract defenders from the parapet whilst the lads got up the ladders.
Quote from: Erpingham on August 02, 2021, 02:41:17 PM
Inspired to venture into unfamiliar territory of Ghaznavid elephants, I found a mention of Sultan Mahmud capturing a fort with elephants smashing the gates in 1002 in this article
https://www.jstor.org/stable/44156208 . p.215
It does give different references to those mentioned by Richard, though forgets to fully define them, just giving author name.
In this case, the elephant destroys the gate with its "teeth" .
Anthony's reference paper appears to be looking at the same siege of Taq in 1002 AD that Kistler talks about. I like the bit about using teeth. It brings to mind evangelical sermons on the subject of there being
"...a great gnashing of teeth in Heaven and, if you have none, teeth will be provided." Perhaps the author meant tusks?
Incidentally, following Rich's post, I had a closer look at Kistler, a consultant on Oliver Stone's film
"Alexander", for which he trained as a mahout and has the certificate to prove it. Notwithstanding such practical experience, he is not a historian. Many reviewers of his work (including the illustrious Jeff Jonas) find it somewhat dodgy, being based upon largely on secondary material and sundry pre-war magazine articles.
To summarise so far. We have a few examples of the attempted use of elephants in breaching gates, most of which tell us they were not very effective and it was eminently practical to drive them off before the gate was splintered. In terms of breaching method, we have either brute force from head-butting and pushing (against which many gates incorporate spikes) or some sort of destruction by tusks (or possibly teeth).
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In part it would depend upon how strongly made and/or maintained the gates are. Are they reinforced? How strong is the beam? How strong are the hinges? Did the Governor embezzle all the funds earmarked for maintenance?
I suspect a great many places were just poorly built and/or maintained. Or that it was just too hard to keep up with the degradation caused by the climate.
Muskets don't count for driving them off - out of period - though I guess boiling water or oil might substitute.
Quote from: altfritz on August 11, 2021, 11:10:14 PM
Muskets don't count for driving them off - out of period - though I guess boiling water or oil might substitute.
Well Amida was originally fortified by the Romans prior to the siege in 359 AD (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Amida_(359)), and one can imagine they had scorpions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpio_(weapon))and similar bolt-shooting engines that should be quite capable of either driving off the elephants or messing up their entire day. Javelins hurled from the battlements or through murder holes would probably also work quite well.