whilst researching fabric colours, came across this which indicates the colours you can get from British plant flowers, leaves and roots
How about woad for blue?
Interesting stuff Dave. Muted colors, but a wider selection than some would have us believe was available. I am somewhat hesitant to inquire about the item titled Red Hot Poker.
kniphovia :)
There's quite a craft industry in natural dyes out there and lots of pretty colour shots. However, modern dyers don't necessarily use ancient techniques and you have to watch that they use only materials available at the time.
true...although I suspect that there are many similar natural dyes not in the picture that were available and giving similar results
Quote from: Holly on August 06, 2022, 09:55:33 AM
true...although I suspect that there are many similar natural dyes not in the picture that were available and giving similar results
Curiosity piqued, I had a quick google about. Here are three sites with some examples and recipes that demonstrate range of colour and how easy to obtain they were :
https://historicenterprises.com/fabrics-colors-c-100_198_200.html
https://www.jennydean.co.uk/mediaeval-dyes/
http://postej-stew.dk/2019/05/medieval-fabrics-part-2/
And, given your interest in Welsh sheep husbandry, don't forget the various shades of natural wool colour (many older breeds have brown to black fleeces, rather than greys and creams)
Very true. Welsh Mountain sheep are traditionally dark brown or black
Does anyone have any indication as to how permanent or fast these natural dyes might have been? I mean, most natural dyes tend to rapidly fade in sunlight, which could leave everything looking distinctly washed out.
Of course, these being dyes that are readily available from local plants, they would doubtless provide the colour to the lower classes. Any ideas for other dyes, such as ochre, mananese oxide, indigo, etc?
There is some discussion of permanence in the articles I linked to - like lots of things, it varies :) One of the sources of fading that we associate with natural dyes, their fastness in the wash, was less of an issue as clothes were rarely washed but fading by wear or sunlight would still be an issue.
The origin of cloth also affected the colours available. Home dyeing had less access to some ingredients than commercial dyeing - not just dyes but also chemicals used as mordants.
Indigo was probably not used much in Northern Europe, as the same dye was available in woad (though less concentrated). Not sure on minerals in dyes - most appear to have been plant based, though one of the sources I referred to has some recipes from a German medieval dye recipe book has colours based on pigments like cinnabar and verdigris.
Quote from: NickHarbud on August 06, 2022, 01:50:19 PM
Does anyone have any indication as to how permanent or fast these natural dyes might have been? I mean, most natural dyes tend to rapidly fade in sunlight, which could leave everything looking distinctly washed out.
Hence the predominance of browns, as mountain sheep rarely look washed out and retain their colour :D
Quote from: Jim Webster on August 06, 2022, 04:02:20 PM
Quote from: NickHarbud on August 06, 2022, 01:50:19 PM
Does anyone have any indication as to how permanent or fast these natural dyes might have been? I mean, most natural dyes tend to rapidly fade in sunlight, which could leave everything looking distinctly washed out.
Hence the predominance of browns, as mountain sheep rarely look washed out and retain their colour :D
especially Welsh Mountain sheep as they are permanently soaked!
While diving down internet rabbit holes, I found these lists (http://www.elizabethancostume.net/lizcolor.html) of 16th century colours - a sort of early Farrow & Ball perhaps.
Favourites include Rat's Colour (grey) , Puke (dirty brown), Goose-Turd Green (yellow green), Dead Spaniard (another grey) and Dying Monkey (sadly unidentified).
Sounds like citadel colours ;D
Quote from: Holly on August 06, 2022, 06:27:11 PM
Sounds like citadel colours ;D
So, that's where they got their inspiration from :)
:-X
In two minds whether to create a new topic but have decided to try and keep things together. I've been thinking of medieval clothing colours recently and have found a few more interesting sites with details of dyes and cloth.
https://companyofthestaple.org.au/what-colour-were-medieval-clothes/ This Australian website has some other interesting articles on aspects of medieval camp life, including some bits on mail armour.
https://rosaliegilbert.com/dyesandcolours.html Some recipes and English cloth colour names here
https://rosaliegilbert.com/fabricnames.html Types of cloth - not that we need to model these on our figures :)
These allow you to see the annoying medieval habit of calling a type of cloth and a colour the same name, even though they may not be the same colour ::) Scarlet is a notorious example. Scarlet cloth was not always red.
Incidentally, in reference back to earlier posts, the Company of the Staple article reckons that cloth made from undyed wool of brown sheep isn't light fast and fades to golden brown.
There are doubtless more sites out there. Some of the clothing sites touch on it as well.
Things to remember from these various articles are that the Middle Ages could be colourful. However, costs of quality fabrics with expensive dyes restricted what people could get hold of, as did sumptuary laws. Sumptuary laws in particular had a tiering effect. You made sure you advertised your status through clothing. If you were a retainer or a yeoman, you wouldn't want to be seen in the russet or hodden of an agricultural labourer.
good to keep it all together as a resource thread i think
Colours by no dyes. A visit to a Tudor living history event at Kentwell Hall yielded the following image of hat making
Tudor hats.jpg
These hats are all made of undyed wool. While one is a creamy grey, the others are various shades of brown, with the two hats in progress being particularly dark. Shows the variation possible under the catch-all of undyed wool.
I can't speak for medieval dyes but my father worked in textiles and informed me that back before the 70s they used specific recipes for cloth intended for parts of rural Africa. Essentially they dyed the cloth with natural dyes and salt based alkalis (to 'fix' the dye), didn't wash the excess off and then transported them in tightly wrapped bolts under waterproof coverings which allowed them to be floated down rivers behind small boats to isolated communities. This method allowed the waterproof covering to be used as tents, the wrappings as string/twine, etc. whilst the actual cloth could then be cut and the final wash applied by the locals and the colourful salty residue could either be drank (possible for folk religious/medicinal reasons) or used for some other suitable purpose. Apparently it was quite nutritious.
I'm wondering if a similar process was used in ancient times and if the dying process back then produced useful by-products. Also how strong were the dyes, would people potentially extract all they possibly could and be happy losing a richer colour but gaining the by-product?
Quote from: Miltiades The Merchant on June 27, 2023, 12:33:52 PMI'm wondering if a similar process was used in ancient times and if the dying process back then produced useful by-products. Also how strong were the dyes, would people potentially extract all they possibly could and be happy losing a richer colour but gaining the by-product?
Using my medieval dyeing knowledge assembled in this thread, I approached the Tudor dyers at the event. They were brewing up woad. They were clear the only mordant salt they used was alum. Alum is mildly toxic and deadly in large doses. A quick check on the internet tells me that woad isn't poisonous but tastes nasty. Apparently, weld (used for yellow and with woad to make green) is mildly narcotic. Was your father shipping yellow or green cloth?
Quote from: Erpingham on June 27, 2023, 01:01:45 PMQuote from: Miltiades The Merchant on June 27, 2023, 12:33:52 PMI'm wondering if a similar process was used in ancient times and if the dying process back then produced useful by-products. Also how strong were the dyes, would people potentially extract all they possibly could and be happy losing a richer colour but gaining the by-product?
Using my medieval dyeing knowledge assembled in this thread, I approached the Tudor dyers at the event. They were brewing up woad. They were clear the only mordant salt they used was alum. Alum is mildly toxic and deadly in large doses. A quick check on the internet tells me that woad isn't poisonous but tastes nasty. Apparently, weld (used for yellow and with woad to make green) is mildly narcotic. Was your father shipping yellow or green cloth?
I'm not sure of the specific colours but he did say they sent gaudy patterned cloth, often with checker designs and stripes, for sarongs (I think the mill exported to India under the name Lancashire Sarongs). I imagine red would have been used due to the popularity in areas of Africa. He did say it was a little before his time but he was informed of the process, so specifics might be outside his knowledge. I imagine if they were discussing such uses the dyes used must have been non-toxic, although narcotic effects might have been acceptable or even desirable considering the situation.
Really useful info and the photos of the wool hats reinforces my choice of colours for painting
Chatting with the dyers was fun. In particular, talking about depth of colour based on length of time in the dye bath and also how tired the dye was (the first batch out has the strongest colour, weakening with each batch put through). Also, how many colours were achieved by double dyeing (weld and woad for green, walnut and woad for black - you use the green husks of walnut to make a very dark brown).
I bet it was fascinating chatting with them