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Quote from: DBS on September 30, 2024, 02:19:53 PMpoint is that the pilum was not necessarily a battle winning wonder weapon (as some rules tend to favour) if Mr Barca felt no great compulsion to adopt it.

As not a specialist in this period, I assume we don't know why from our sources the great re-armament happened, just that it did? Was it a change to a more decisive attack weapon, adoption of better armour, change in tactical doctrine, all three? Or was it just a general upgrade because kit had worn out or broken (spears and shields were fairly disposable) and suddenly, there was a pile of quality kit (albeit pre-worn) available?

Quote from: Erpingham on September 30, 2024, 03:25:30 PM

Quote from: DBS on September 30, 2024, 02:19:53 PMpoint is that the pilum was not necessarily a battle winning wonder weapon (as some rules tend to favour) if Mr Barca felt no great compulsion to adopt it.

As not a specialist in this period, I assume we don't know why from our sources the great re-armament happened, just that it did? Was it a change to a more decisive attack weapon, adoption of better armour, change in tactical doctrine, all three? Or was it just a general upgrade because kit had worn out or broken (spears and shields were fairly disposable) and suddenly, there was a pile of quality kit (albeit pre-worn) available?

It is very probable that African infantry wore linen/fabric cuirasses. Technically at least 40% of legionaries wore mail, so there is an obvious reason to re-equip with the armour.

I think the change is reported as using captured Roman equipment, rather than just as changing to Roman tactics.

From memory, the implication was that the training was consequential to the re equipping, not the primary motivation of itself with some men picking up more suitable weapons as that happened.

But as ever with these sources, the true fact can be obscured by literary style and expectations of ancient readers, so it could just as easily be using the equipment to emphasis the change overall even though the real effect was tactical

Polybius:
"The armour of the Libyans was Roman, for Hannibal had armed them with a selection of the spoils taken in previous battles."

"ἦν δ᾽ ὁ καθοπλισμὸς τῶν μὲν Λιβύων Ῥωμαϊκός, οὓς πάντας Ἀννίβας τοῖς ἐκ τῆς προγεγενημένης μάχης σκύλοις ἐκλέξας κατακεκοσμήκει"

What the Shuckburgh translation renders as "armour" is kathoplismos, "armament" or "equipment" - not just body-armour.

Livy's version:
"The Africans might have passed for an array of Romans, equipped as they were with arms captured partly at the Trebia but mostly at Lake Trasumennus."

"Afros Romanam crederes aciem: ita armati erant armis et ad Trebiam, ceterum magna ex parte ad Trasumennum captis."

In this version the Africans were armati with armis: also quite generic, "arms" or "military equipment" - but according to Livy, a thorough enough re-equipment to be taken for Romans at a distance.

I seem to recall that this was a part of Patrick's thesis from many years ago whereby the re-equipment was more than just changing kit but also fighting in more Roman a fashion.
If the scutum was as curved as we think it, then it would be more resistant perhaps to pila strikes than a celtic theuros or an argive style shield, having a narrower area of vulnerability to penetrating strikes (in theory) on account of the strong and curved surface area.
Having the veterans fight with shorter spears would also fit with bringing in a lot of the Italic troops who left Italy with Hannibal as Samnites and others were known to use short spears in combat as well as swords. I would also suggest that it would be possible to throw a short spear a reasonable battlefield distance as one can throw a pilum, so it is possible that the "phalanx" of the African foot was closer to Richard Taylor's Greek infantry who still used throwing as well as longer thrusting spears for a greater length of time than is often theorised.
Anyway - those are my random thoughts about the shorter spear of the Libyo-Phoenician foot.

On weapon and armour replacements, I think there is good evidence for arguing that troops would retain much of the same style throughout a campaign. Armies would have had smiths in their train, spear and javelin shafts are not hard to shape and we do know that Alexander's army had much the same kit when the worn-out examples were replaced with posh new kit while in Persia.
So, the Spanish troops at Cannae retaining their national costume is not so out of bounds. Tunics can be kept clean or replaced with fresh cloth and it's likely that the soldiers had women (after all, what army ever lacked women?) - it's still quite possible that they'd be wearing different cloth but I wouldn't be so fast to dismiss the descriptions we have recieved.
Shields are not difficult to make when an army stays in one place for a time - wood needs shaping and fitting, possibly steaming to get the planks to bend but it's not a rare skill. Swords would be harder to replace but I don't recall mention of swords being worn out and each warrior or soldier in possession of a sword would know to take care of it (oiling and sharpening etc).
Not to belabour the point (too late!) but perhaps all this might indicate that Polybius picking out the kathoplismos as being something actually worthy of notice - more than just something which happened all the time. We get told that skirmishers went out ahead of the heavy foot but we don't get told exactly what they did - skirmishers were common knowledge, so again the re-equipment may be something much more significant and worthy of note.

Fascinating discussion, so thanks to everyone!

On comment about clothing is that I'm sure Livy mentions Numidians picking up local wives, and of course they'd be using Italian horses as replacements. I cannot see them shipping Numidian horses across purely as replacements.

As I have said before, Polybius specifically mentions at III.49 replacing worn out weapons and providing warm clothing and footwear at "The Island", before he even crosses the Alps, courtesy of the local tribes.  So southern Gallic gear.

I still think the Spanish in their nice white tunics at Cannae are a literary trope.  Put another way, Polybius probably had personally seen Spanish warriors in action, if the theory that he accompanied Scipio Aemilianus during the Numantian campaigns is correct - but those were Iberians on their home turf, not men separated from Spain by hundreds of miles and several years of hard campaigning.  So not deliberate dishonesty or fabrication by Polybius, simply a strong visual impression from another time and place.

Quote from: DBS on October 15, 2024, 11:23:15 AMAs I have said before, Polybius specifically mentions at III.49 replacing worn out weapons and providing warm clothing and footwear at "The Island", before he even crosses the Alps, courtesy of the local tribes.  So southern Gallic gear.

So my Gallic light cavalry figures are actually Numidians 
In the correct time and place. Later on I can use Italian light cavalry figures instead of or as well

Whilst tongue in cheek I think there is a serious point that stuff did wear out and nobody is going to bother shipping Numidian tunics from Africa

Quote from: Jim Webster on October 15, 2024, 02:56:42 PMnobody is going to bother shipping Numidian tunics from Africa

To take an extreme, if you go with Strabo, the Balearic slingers only wore tunics at all thanks to the civilising influence of the Phoenicians; there was a reason the islands were known in ancient times as the Gymnesiae...  So they probably were not too fussed on their wardrobe options.

Much like many of the more modern Ibiza beachgoers then?

 

Quote from: Nick Harbud on October 15, 2024, 04:09:38 PMMuch like many of the more modern Ibiza beachgoers then?

 

Indeed.  My late parents in law used to holiday in Mallorca in the sixties though, and said in those days the Guardia Civil were very firm on standards of beach attire as Franco had... views...  tourism was to be encouraged, but tourism was no excuse for not conducting oneself with a modicum of modestly.

Quote from: DBS on October 15, 2024, 11:23:15 AMAs I have said before, Polybius specifically mentions at III.49 replacing worn out weapons and providing warm clothing and footwear at "The Island", before he even crosses the Alps, courtesy of the local tribes.  So southern Gallic gear.

I'd be curious to know what Greek terms are used. I'd also wonder what weapons could have so worn out in a few months that they needed replacing? Was it all the weapons or just those which were beyond use?

"Weapons" is just hopla, as usual.