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Quote from: Imperial Dave on December 16, 2024, 06:21:42 PMI might have to resurrect this thread with some of the stuff I have been reading about in the intervening 3 years....

I suppose the acid test is whether those three years of reading have turned up any new evidence or at least non-trivial shifts in interpretation.

well, depends on your acceptance of new articles and books in the past 3 years.

for example, there appears to be more acceptance of the possibility that finding 'Anglo-Saxon' pottery or jewellery might actually be native 'British' in origin. If we accept that some new styles of pottery for example were the consequence of the state machine breaking down in the early 5th, it may mean that we might be labelling some sites as AS and they might not be etc.

thats not to say that some new pottery was obviously immigrant in nature but the picture appears more nuanced and also very regional

One of the problems of this archaeology is, although some may find it interesting for its own sake, making it meaningful in a socio-political or military sense for those who wish to game the period might be tougher.

ok, the thread I am trying to pull is that if we reason that not only did pottery become debased and of poorer quality quite quickly after the state mechanisms went kaput, the same could be reasoned for arms and armour. Yes there will be reuse but i read that good quality blacksmithing of armour and weapons in Britain degraded quickly in the 5th and didnt pick up again until the 7th. This has implications for our understanding of armies of the period and the way they functioned

potentially

I have sometimes wondered if pottery deteriorated because people didn't use it much. No amphora but we have barrels? Same with mugs and plates. Just use wood.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/british_prehistory/ironage_tasks_gallery_11.shtml

If you went back to local craftsmen and women producing locally is it a step up or a step down from mass produced pottery?

Well, wood's bio-degradable and pottery isn't, so that's a step forwards...

Quote from: Jim Webster on December 16, 2024, 09:06:49 PMIf you went back to local craftsmen and women producing locally is it a step up or a step down from mass produced pottery?

Depends on whether they can convince the local population that their products are 'artisan' and the fingerprints are proof of the "authentic nature of their products".  

Functionally it's been proposed as a step down as the glazing of pottery virtually ceased and is replaced by rough thrown types. These can't be heated in the same way and also 'absorb' food deposits over time

Quote from: Imperial Dave on December 17, 2024, 06:02:33 AMFunctionally it's been proposed as a step down as the glazing of pottery virtually ceased and is replaced by rough thrown types. These can't be heated in the same way and also 'absorb' food deposits over time

That's why I wondered whether they just went for wood which has not of these issues

I've no doubt there was considerable use of organics (wood, basketry, leather) in food preparation but you still need something you can heat liquids in.

Fairly skilled pottery production continued in northern Gaul in this period - 5th and 6th centuries - but in central factories from which the wares were distributed over a fairly wide area, which implies a degree of political stability that allowed the infrastructure to function. If Britain was in a state of continuous warfare between Britons and Saxons (including a period of occupation of a large part of Britain by the Saxons before Badon) then it makes sense that the pottery factories ceased to function and any kind of manufacture became very localised and primitive. Once the original pottery skills were lost they would not be easily resurrected once relative peace had been restored.

Exactly. Loss of skills and all of that impacted heavily

Quote from: Imperial Dave on December 17, 2024, 12:03:55 PMExactly. Loss of skills and all of that impacted heavily

And the fact that the pottery manufacturing process in the late Empire wasn't a local village thing - it was all about centralised factories with a wide distribution network. Introduce a bit of chronic warfare and it's gone.

Quote from: Erpingham on December 17, 2024, 11:36:59 AMI've no doubt there was considerable use of organics (wood, basketry, leather) in food preparation but you still need something you can heat liquids in.

bronze? You don't need much because it's precious and will tend to be recycled?

Quote from: Jim Webster on December 17, 2024, 12:21:14 PM

Quote from: Erpingham on December 17, 2024, 11:36:59 AMI've no doubt there was considerable use of organics (wood, basketry, leather) in food preparation but you still need something you can heat liquids in.

bronze? You don't need much because it's precious and will tend to be recycled?

Very expensive - I doubt many below the aristocracy had bronze cooking pots.  Although we know archaeologically and in poetry that larger cauldrons had a place communal eating in the mead hall.