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QuoteLet's take your reconstruction

This isn't my reconstruction.  I wouldn't actually agree with it.  Nor is it one of Duncan's, so whose is it?

I'm thinking more along the Kromeyer line



However, I think there may have been a bit of leeway southwards on the battle site because he is guessing as much as we are. I don't think the Pelagos wood came this far south either, but it may have done.  Where I think I would differ is I would see the Thebans echeloned back from the Theban "trireme ram", covering it's flank.  The Mantinaeans are stuck - Epamondinas has concentratedd force on their right flank, gambling on caving in their best troops before the rest can wake up and start to manoeuver against their rest of the Theban line, being further hindered by cavalry and light infantry pushed out to neutralise their fastest troops, the cavalry.  The Mantinaean right duly caves in and everybody else heads for the woods.  Exhausted Thebans, who have lost their higher command and have been marching and fighting all day, set about doing the hoplite thing of formally claiming the field.  Nothing that can be proved but , I think, broadly plausible.

So Kromeyer splits his phalanx into two halves with a kilometer or more wide gap between them, attacks the Mantineans with his Thebans at an angle, and has the cavalry fight on the mountain slopes. Right. I would call it a desperately ingenious attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole.

Quote from: Justin Swanton on March 27, 2023, 12:57:51 PMSo Kromeyer splits his phalanx into two halves with a kilometer or more wide gap between them, attacks the Mantineans with his Thebans at an angle, and has the cavalry fight on the mountain slopes. Right. I would call it a desperately ingenious attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole.

The bit with the cavalry and infantry on the slopes is straight outta Xenophon, as is the idea that they are to prevent the Mantinaean left from swinging across to interfere on their the right.  I agree about the gap between the two halves - I think he misunderstands Xenophon.  Duncan quotes Anderson's critique of this.  As I said, I think the Theban army is echeloned to the right of the ram, with the poorest allied troops furthest back - that's what I think Xenophon is saying. 

Quote from: Erpingham on March 27, 2023, 01:13:10 PM

Quote from: Justin Swanton on March 27, 2023, 12:57:51 PMSo Kromeyer splits his phalanx into two halves with a kilometer or more wide gap between them, attacks the Mantineans with his Thebans at an angle, and has the cavalry fight on the mountain slopes. Right. I would call it a desperately ingenious attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole.

The bit with the cavalry and infantry on the slopes is straight outta Xenophon, as is the idea that they are to prevent the Mantinaean left from swinging across to interfere on their the right.  I agree about the gap between the two halves - I think he misunderstands Xenophon.  Duncan quotes Anderson's critique of this.  As I said, I think the Theban army is echeloned to the right of the ram, with the poorest allied troops furthest back - that's what I think Xenophon is saying. 

I agree with the echeloning. I'll come back later about the rest. Gotta earn my keep right now.

More Speculation and Google Mapping About...

I have found this topic most interesting and has led to virtual exploring of the environs around this area.

As for more speculations:

• I wonder if Epaminodas' grave shown on Google maps is actually the Temple of Poseidon mentioned in the literature as seen along the way from Mantineia to Tegea.  Has Poseidon's Temple been located?

• Pelagos.  Where is the historical evidence of these copse of oaks north of the "narrows" as we have defined them?  Moving south along the Mantineia to Tegea road is a small village to the east of Tripoli of this same name "Pelagos".  Is this a coincidence or does this location constitute the remnants of these oak woods?  If the Spartans and their allies deployed south of Pelagos as the accounts detail, there is still space for the Thebans to deploy from Tegea to the north to face them.
   By my reckoning, the distance between this Pelagos and Tegea is about 30 stadia.

Quote from: JonFreitag on March 27, 2023, 03:19:59 PMTegea road is a small village to the east of Tripoli of this same name "Pelagos".  Is this a coincidence or does this location constitute the remnants of these oak woods?

This is a modern name.  It appears on the 1832 survey as Bosini, I think.  A lot of villages in the area were given Greek names in the 20th century to purge recollection of Turkish and Slavic influence in the Middle Ages, apparently.  I suspect the renamers had read Pausanius 

Add : In case you are wondering at my intimate knowledge of the Tegean Plain, I'm quoting someone who does actually know the ground

During a recent name-reform when many Turkish and Slavic village names in the area were given ancient Greek names,
the small village called Bosin which is right next to this pond was named Pelagos (The old village name
appears on William Loring's map from the end of the 19th century. See Loring, 1895, Pl. I.), but there are
no oak trees anywhere in the vicinity of this village.

Jørgen Bakke : Forty Rivers. Landscape and Memory in the District of Ancient Tegea, p38, n111

Quote from: Justin Swanton on March 27, 2023, 07:21:11 AMI'll leave the whole question of the Mantinea-Tegean border there and look at the deployment next. To repeat my earlier question, why did Epaminondas get the Argives to paint clubs on their shields so as to resemble Thebans? $10,000,000 for the right answer.* 

Since no-one has yet taken this one up: He didn't.

It's only the Arkadians who are mentioned as painting clubs on their shields:

QuoteFor at the time when he gave them the last order to make ready, saying that there would be a battle, the horsemen eagerly whitened their helmets at his command, the hoplites of the Arcadians painted clubs upon their shields, as though they were Thebans, and all alike sharpened their spears and daggers and burnished their shields.

Quote from: Erpingham on March 27, 2023, 08:56:55 AM

Quote from: Orc65 on March 27, 2023, 01:32:00 AM

Quote from: JonFreitag on March 27, 2023, 12:10:41 AMIf there was no road between Mantineia and Tegea, why was this feature called the Tegean Gate?  If the main road was to Pallantium, should it not be the Pallantium Gate?

Was it called the Tegean Gate in antiquity or is that a modern label?

I think the name Tegean gate is modern, from what I've read. I don't think we know the actual names.

Yes sadly the gates weren't excavated with labels on them naming them    - Nemean gate is what it's called now (though for the very good reason that it's where the road to Tegea would go out from, unless someone was deliberately laying spaghetti roads to deceive posterity)

Quote from: Justin Swanton on March 27, 2023, 12:11:10 PMI'm not much of a fan of being told I'm wrong without any attempt to demonstrate why I am wrong. Ricardus locutus est, causa finita est. Thus far nobody has rebutted my analysis of Xenophon. Richard is welcome to, and if he proves his case I'll be happy to accept it. My job isn't on the line if I'm proved wrong. 

Justin, I and others have wasted many hours telling you what is wrong with your various theories. What good has it ever done? I have better things to do. You can believe what you like - I don't care. Nobody does,

FWIW nobody will 'rebut your analysis of Xenophon'. Your analysis is possible, one of many possibilities. The standard interpretation is also possible - and provides, in the opinion of many, a better fit to the evidence and logic of the situation. You claim that this standard interpretation is incompatible with the account of Xenophon, so the burden of proof is firmly on you to 'prove it'. But, please spare us. (Over and out from me by the way - I'm happy to discuss Mantineia or any other topic with anyone else but I've had my fill of you).

Okey-dokey. Time for some fresh heresies. Looking at Xenophon: after making preparations - including disguising his Arcadians as Theban hoplites - the army exits the city and immediately deploys into line:

For at the time when he gave them the last order to make ready, saying that there would be a battle, the horsemen eagerly whitened their helmets at his command, the hoplites of the Arcadians painted clubs upon their shields, as though they were Thebans, and all alike sharpened their spears and daggers and burnished their shields. But when he had led them forth, thus made ready, it is worth while again to note what he did. In the first place, as was natural, he formed them in line of battle.

A couple of things to note. Firstly, Xenophon's reference earlier to Epaminondas' wisdom in camping within the walls, as this would enable him to observe what his enemy was doing without being observed himself:

For, in the first place, I commend his pitching his camp within the wall of Tegea, where he was in greater safety than if he had been encamped outside, and where whatever was being done was more entirely concealed from the enemy. Furthermore, it was easier for him, being in the city, to provide himself with whatever he needed. Since the enemy, on the other hand, was encamped outside, it was possible to see whether they were doing things rightly or were making mistakes.

When was the enemy encamped outside? Answer: just before the battle. Xenophon is clearly looking ahead here to the moment when Epaminondas is preparing for the main engagement and it was necessary to conceal his preparations (including shield-painting) from the enemy whilst being able to see what they were doing - such as how they were deploying.

But when he had led them forth... "lead forth" translates ἐξάγω - "to lead out [of somewhere]". In this context it refers to the Theban army quitting the city. Which means that immediately on leaving Tegea the Theban army forms a battleline: "In the first place." This clearly excludes an 11km march north to the narrows.

This battleline does not engage the enemy - who is therefore deployed outside Tegea - but marches westwards toward the mountains over against Tegea. The Greek is straightforward: mountains to the west that are opposite/over against Tegea.

Here is my reconstruction of the initial deployment of the two armies. I'll explain the detail in the next post (tired now and who reads a long post anyway?). The Mantinean alliance has a good position with both flanks anchored against mountain slopes and some high ground behind the left wing that they might have already occupied. Both sides' cavalry are deployed in front since there is no need for flank guards - where exactly they deploy and with with what frontage is anyone's guess.



Epaminondas retires to the west and ends up here. Both sides deploy thus:




Edit: yes, I forgot to include the troops that go for the heights on Epaminondas' left flank. Pretend they are there.

Quote from: Duncan Head on March 27, 2023, 07:18:09 PM

Quote from: Justin Swanton on March 27, 2023, 07:21:11 AMI'll leave the whole question of the Mantinea-Tegean border there and look at the deployment next. To repeat my earlier question, why did Epaminondas get the Argives to paint clubs on their shields so as to resemble Thebans? $10,000,000 for the right answer.* 

Since no-one has yet taken this one up: He didn't.

It's only the Arkadians who are mentioned as painting clubs on their shields:

QuoteFor at the time when he gave them the last order to make ready, saying that there would be a battle, the horsemen eagerly whitened their helmets at his command, the hoplites of the Arcadians painted clubs upon their shields, as though they were Thebans, and all alike sharpened their spears and daggers and burnished their shields.

Typo. I meant the Arcadians. 

OK, moderator helmet on.  I don't like the direction this is taking.  We engage with the arguments, not the arguer.  Richard and Justin, I know this is a long standing clash of styles, methods, whatever.  However, I suggest we should pull back at this point. By all means continue to debate the battle, the geography, even the reason why the Arcadians painted Theban symbols on their shields (is there an actual answer or just a theory on this?).  But hold back on further frustrated outbursts, if you please.  Helmet off.

Quote from: Erpingham on March 27, 2023, 07:58:01 PMOK, moderator helmet on.  I don't like the direction this is taking.  We engage with the arguments, not the arguer.  Richard and Justin, I know this is a long standing clash of styles, methods, whatever.  However, I suggest we should pull back at this point. By all means continue to debate the battle, the geography, even the reason why the Arcadians painted Theban symbols on their shields (is there an actual answer or just a theory on this?).  But hold back on further frustrated outbursts, if you please.  Helmet off.

Very well. Promise to be good. 

Funnily enough, after our rehearsal game we have gone for putting the Tegeans and other Arkadians on the extreme left opposite the Mantineians, with the deep Theban formation opposite the Spartans - roughly as Justin has done, though with the Thebans deeper relative to the other units. We originally tried to cover the Mantineians purely with cavalry and light troops, as I suggested in the article; it didn't work. This was partly down to unlucky dice, and in another game it might have come off; but clearly trying to cover 3,000 or so Mantineian hoplites, plus their and the Spartan cavalry, with 1,600 Theban cavalry and some light infantry is not a tactic guaranteed to succeed, so might not have appealed to an ingenious and thorough general such as Epameinondas (not if he was playing DBMM, anyway).

That gives us something more like the attached than the version from the Conference and in Slingshot.

Are the Tegeans "disguised" as Thebans, though? Xenophon doesn't explicitly say so, and his account of the club-painting reads more like spontaneous enthusiasm to me.

Insomnia, so might as well pass the time doing the deployment.

My second diagram BTW was the initial deployment in the western foothills, before Epaminondas formed up the Theban column. Here's a revised version. This is WIP so it will probably change quite a few times (until my obsession wears off).



This is just as Epaminondas reforms his line and has his men ground their spears. The cavalry are deployed conventionally in front of the infantry in a depth of, say, 6 ranks, maybe less - width of the cavalry contingents is speculative at this point.

Everything here is made of rubber BTW, and can be compressed or stretched, but I think the numbers work to give an overall idea of the dispositions of the two armies. I have based my contingent sizes on Duncan's article with a couple of tweaks, the main one being that IMHO the entire Spartan army was present as Agesilaus had managed to join up with the allies near Tegea without compromising the safety of Sparta. I don't find it odd that he isn't mentioned as commander in this battle. Notice that nobody is mentioned as commander. My own take is that the army was led by committee, as the Athenians weren't about to take orders from the Spartans and vice versa, and in any case Sparta had lost considerable prestige and was a fairly small contingent in a huge army.

The entire Theban line is in a more-or-less uniform depth of about 16 ranks. I doubt hoplite infantry could have deployed wider than about 2km and moved in co-ordination. The Arcadians (not Argives!) are disguised as Thebans and deployed on the extreme left of the line - exactly where the Mantinean coalition would expect a Theban column to come from. In preparation for this the Mantineans and Arcadians have deployed deep on the right wing. This is suggested by the fact that the Athenian cavalry, numbering about 600 horse, deploys 6 deep in front of them (there is no indication they were in front of the Spartans). A cavalry file is 2 yards wide so the total width of the Athenian horse is 200 yards. This makes the depth of the 4,000 or so Mantineans and Arcadians about 20 ranks, enough to stop a Theban column in its tracks, hopefully.

Why do the Mantineans get the place of honour on the right wing? Several possible answers:

- they deserved it since the whole war had been started by them
- they had helped save Sparta's bacon by rescuing their capital
- Sparta (and anyone else) was quite happy to let them be flattened by the Theban column
- a combination of the above three

Epaminondas knows the coalition's plan and is preparing to pull a fast one. He wants to target the Spartans with his column as the rout of the coalition's elite troops will probably precipitate a rout of the entire army. But he needs to conceal where he will form the column, hence the disguise of the Arcadians as Theban hoplites.

The Mantinean coalition has another problem: lack of troops. This may be the biggest battle in Greek history, but Epaminondas has 30,000 infantry and they have 'only' 20,000. Forming deep on the right means they have to thin the line elsewhere to match the frontage of the Thebans. This is done on the centre left, where the 'weaker forces' (not physically weak or demotivated, just thinned out) are deployed only 8 deep whilst the rest of the line deploys 12 deep with the exception of the 20-deep right flank anti-Theban setup.

Athenian cavalry is deployed on the right, Eleian cavalry in the rear as a reserve to help either wing, and the remainder of the cavalry, Spartans and Mantineans, on the left. Epaminondas puts his Theban cavalry on his left, the Eubian and Locrian horse on the right, and splits his Thessalian cavalry between the two wings. He hides some hoplites behind/among the right wing cavalry to hold the flank as the main phalanx in that sector is going to disappear.