Alexander's veterans

[aligern]

Occasionally  I see debate about the effectiveness of Alexander's veterans who fought on with his successors and how effective they might be in combat.

Musing on that I came across this post that had reached me from a friend several years back.
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> Drafting Guys over 60 into the armed forces
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> ----this is funny & obviously written by a Former Soldier----
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> New Direction for any war: Send Service Vets over 60!
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> I am over 60 and the Armed Forces thinks I'm too old to track down
> terrorists. You can't be older than 42 to join the military. They've got the
> whole thing ass-backwards. Instead of sending 18-year olds off to fight,
> they ought to take us old guys. You shouldn't be able to join a military
> unit until you're at least 35.
>
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> For starters: Researchers say 18-year-olds think about sex every 10 seconds.
> Old guys only think about sex a couple of times a day, leaving us more than
> 28,000 additional seconds per day to concentrate on the enemy.
>
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> Young guys haven't lived long enough to be cranky, and a cranky soldier is a
> dangerous soldier. 'My back hurts! I can't sleep, I'm tired and hungry' We
> are impatient and maybe letting us kill some asshole that desperately
> deserves it will make us feel better and shut us up for a while.
>
>
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> An 18-year-old doesn't even like to get up before 10 a.m. Old guys always
> get up early to pee so what the hell. Besides, like I said, 'I'm tired and
> can't sleep and since I'm already up, I may as well be up killing some
> fanatical s-of-a-b....
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>
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> If captured we couldn't spill the beans because we'd forget where we put
> them. In fact, name, rank, and serial number would be a real brainteaser.
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> Boot camp would be easier for old guys. We're used to getting screamed and
> yelled at and we're used to soft food. We've also developed an appreciation
> for guns. We've been using them for years as an excuse to get out of the
> house, away from the screaming and yelling.
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>
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> They could lighten up on the obstacle course however. I've been in combat
> and didn't see a single 20-foot wall with rope hanging over the side, nor
> did I ever do any pushups after completing basic training.
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> Actually, the running part is kind of a waste of energy, too. I've never
> seen anyone outrun a bullet.
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> An 18-year-old has the whole world ahead of him. He's still learning to
> shave, to start up a conversation with a pretty girl. He still hasn't
> figured out that a baseball cap has a brim to shade his eyes, not the back
> of his head..
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>
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> These are all great reasons to keep our kids at home to learn a little more
> about life before sending them off into harm's way.
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>
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> Let us old guys track down those dirty rotten coward terrorists. The last
> thing an enemy would want to see is a couple of million pissed off old farts
> with attitudes and automatic weapons who know that their best years are
> already behind them.
>
> [/i]
> You might guess its from a US source from the context.
Some of its points might well ring true for Aleander's old companions.

Roy

[Patrick Waterson]

Very good, Roy.  Who knows but that the SoA might end up spearheading the fight against terrorism? 

Plutarch (Life of Eumenes 16.4) is unequivocal on the combat capabilites of Alexander's Argyraspides: Eumenes is giving battle at Gabiene.

And indeed they were the oldest soldiers of Philip and Alexander, war's athletes as it were, without a defeat or a fall up to that time, many of them now seventy years old, and not a man younger than sixty. And so, when they charged upon the forces of Antigonus, they shouted: 'It is against your fathers that ye lose, ye rascals'; and falling upon them in a rage they crushed their whole phalanx at once, not a man withstanding them, and most of their opponents being cut to pieces at close quarters.

Having been undefeated up to that point suggests their performance at Gabiene was not unique.

Patrick

[Jim Webster]

I noticed that with my father and his contemporaries, those who made it to their three score years and ten after a lifetime of farmwork were tough.
I've known a man in his eighties finish a mornings work before going to hospital to have his broken ribs seen to!

Jim

[Erpingham]

I recall a former colleague who was a squash and fitness fanatic who'll be in his late 60s now, still playing at a high level in senior championships.  So fitness won't necesarily be the downfall of the veterans.  But certain things fade inevitably, like reaction time, speed ( a constant lament in the Euro football of the old (30s) players was they were slower than they had been in their youth, despite being still at high levels of pro-fitness),healing after injury, progressive degenerations (e.g. back problems).  Against this you'd have skill, experience, less psychological impact of battle (seen it all before).  In terms of a phalanx, you'd need to work out how much the cons of ageing balance against the pros of experience.

[Jim Webster]

It might be that the pro's against other Macedonians were far higher than the cons
It would be interesting to see whether they were that much better against someone who had only just heard of Macedonians and didn't realise there was a difference

On the other hand a similar situation might pertain with Triari. There is one school of thought who regards them as tough veterans and another school of thought which seems to regard them as crotchety old men brought along to look after the camp, and on the battlefield to form a slow moving expendable rearguard if the army has to fall back rapidly.

Jim

[Patrick Waterson]

Plutarch's labelling of them as without a defeat or a fall up to that time indicates that it had not really mattered whom they had met, the result had been the same.

This suggests the pros did outweigh the cons - and the hard test of battle consistently demonstrated this (in fact these Argyraspides were never defeated - by anyone).

It looks as if provided they could remain upright and mobile, then experience, skill and unit cohesion would prevail.

Patrick

[Jim Webster]

It's alright Plutarch labelling as that, but as the only people they had met since they became veterans were Macedonians (or infantry trained by Macedonians) it's a bit meaningless. And did they fight more than two field battles at this point? I cannot remember what part they played under Perdiccas in the invasion of Egypt for example.

Actually I'd say the most impressive part was the fact they managed to keep up with the marching armies   

Jim

[Patrick Waterson]

One seems to remember (or at least to remember reading about) their being in action against Greek mercenaries, Indians, Persian foot of various descriptions, other peoples of generally nondescript nature and finally, under Eumenes, people using the same system.  Despite the occasional hiccup (e.g. at Issus, where Alex had to pull a few phalangical chestnuts out of the metaphorical fire) they seem to have emerged with an overall clear round.

Their 40+ years of continued successful military service (twice the best of Napoleon's Old Guard) is an important part of their effectiveness, as when push came to shove (or poke) they seemed able to wipe the field with anyone.

It is tempting to suggest that rather than keeping up with the marching armies they essentially kept up with the baggage.  They seemed quite attached to that baggage ... 

Patrick

[Jim Webster]

What I was meaning was as old men, they merely faced Macedonians.
They'd done all the other stuff, but some years before

Jim

[Tim]

I know not quite the same as combat but I suspect that life was generally tougher 2,000 years ago.  I suspect to survive it one had to be hardier than people of our generation.  Perhaps only the VERY strong ones made it past 40.  Two examples from where I work, of how hardy people can be.  I have one person who works for me.  He was brought up in rural South Africa.  In 17 years he has had one day off sick.  Once he broke his arm on the way home from work but still made it in for the start of the early shift next day, arm in plaster and all.  Another is someone who despite being in his mid-forties still plays first team Rugby (as a prop).  He was brought up in rural Ireland.

[aligern]

Tim's right and remember it self selects, if you cannot keep up you leave the unit. This is not a matter of all 60 year olds in the period having to do route marches, just those that had spent their lives doing it.
I also wonder that phalanx fighting isn't as draining as say Roman legionary style where there is much more dodging around. In a phalanx you advance and push and thrust, in a legion you run and throw and fence which would use a lot more energy. If you are pushing in phalanx that is tiring, but probably not  so constant that you couldn't get a rest.

Roy

[Jim Webster]

Just to follow up the point of a 'life of ease' in the phalanx. I wonder if that is why Triari stuck with long spears?

Jim

[aligern]

A good thought Jim, wait around all day muttering about the youth of today then forming up close for a last stand in which bitter solidity is more important than athletic ability sort of fits the profile of the original post pretty well. I'd suggest particularly the bit about having lived your life and being prepared to sell it dearly whilst the boys reform is apt.

Roy

[Jim Webster]

I was always taken by the Terry Pratchett comment that Cohen the Barbarian and his horde were old because they hadn't died, and they were experts at 'not dying'.
Your veteran triari are going to know how to stand, the best way to move your shield, how to place your weight so you can dodge that blow with the minimum effort.

I was always liked the old idea of S troops in DBM where they got +1 when they lost making them harder to kill. They're veterans, they're good at not being killed 

Jim

[Duncan Head]

Occasionally  I see debate about the effectiveness of Alexander's veterans who fought on with his successors and how effective they might be in combat.

Occasionally, you even see a whole new book about them:

Joseph Roisman
Alexander's Veterans and the Early Wars of the Successors
http://tinyurl.com/coz5mpk
University of Texas Press (25 Jun 2012)

Looks interesting.
cheers,
Duncan