Carthaginians in Spain 211-206 BC?

[Jim Webster]

As a side issue when I started  ancient wargaming thureophoroi didn't exist!

When I started wargaming, Carthaginians had big round shields with unscrewable bronze bosses and wore red leather tunics.

when I started wargaming Carthaginians were 'modern' not 'ancient'   

[aligern]

I must call attention to Ian having ascribed originality to Minifigs. The range with the African infantry with fascinator was based pretty accurately and consistently on Our own Phil Barker's then ground breaking Armies and Enemies of Ancient Rome
Roy

[Erpingham]

I must call attention to Ian having ascribed originality to Minifigs. The range with the African infantry with fascinator was based pretty accurately and consistently on Our own Phil Barker's then ground breaking Armies and Enemies of Ancient Rome
Roy

Unfortunately, Phil's book lacks references to sources, so it needs an expert eye to identify where the reconstructions are sourced from.  As we were talking shields, for example, we can guess that PB gave the infantry large round shields based on considerable numbers of Carthaginian seals which show hoplite kit.  They are shown with the typical aspis type arm and hand carry, though are desribed as made of hide with pointed bosses (the screw-in bosses aren't from PB incidentally - I think they came from a very old Guardroom debate or similar).  What was the source for these?

[Jim Webster]

I must call attention to Ian having ascribed originality to Minifigs. The range with the African infantry with fascinator was based pretty accurately and consistently on Our own Phil Barker's then ground breaking Armies and Enemies of Ancient Rome
Roy

Unfortunately, Phil's book lacks references to sources, so it needs an expert eye to identify where the reconstructions are sourced from.  As we were talking shields, for example, we can guess that PB gave the infantry large round shields based on considerable numbers of Carthaginian seals which show hoplite kit.  They are shown with the typical aspis type arm and hand carry, though are desribed as made of hide with pointed bosses (the screw-in bosses aren't from PB incidentally - I think they came from a very old Guardroom debate or similar).  What was the source for these?

I always felt that Garrison did a particularly nice Libyan infantryman in 25mm with the big flat round shield and spear. If memory serves he was wearing a leather mini-dress and an ostrich feather in a head band

[Duncan Head]

Trying to keep out of this but curiosity getting the better of me.  Is the Carthaginian heavy infantry sequence hoplite with aspis - hoplite with thureos - imitation legionary with scutum?  Or am I misunderstanding?

The sequence seems to be something like that, yes, but with some uncertainty about all the transitions. Hoplite with aspis seems to be well evidenced up to the First Roman War - probably for both citizens and Libyan levies. Then there is a blank with some depictions of thureos plus Quesada's suggestion that the Spanish adopted the oval shield from the Carthaginians. We don't know what weapons the Libyans used with this oval shield. There is an adoption of Roman arms by the Libyans at Cannae, but we don't, however much we wrangle the texts, really know how extensive that adoption was. It is conceivable that we had spear-thruting thureophoroi adopting mail and a larger scutum and keeping their spears, or spear-throwing thureophoroi adopting mail and a larger scutum and pila, or something else. We also don't know in this period if the home service army in Africa were armed the same as Barcid forces overseas, nor if Carthaginian citizens, who don't feature overseas at this period, were armed the same as Libyans. Then in the Third War we have citizen troops with longchai, or longchai and gaisa in one source, carrying a thureos that might be a scutum - I treated these as a sort of thureophoros in AMPW, but now I think that the gaison might be a pilum and the result an imitation Roman. We know much less than some seem to think we do.

Also, Duncan's reconstruction showed thureos and doru.  When did the two-logche armed Carthaginian arise?  Or was this just a theory in the WMWW debate which isn't actually securely evidenced?

Patrick's suggestion that they're mentioned at Trebia refers to longchophoroi, which appears to be the word Polybios uses for Hannibal's light infantry (but not for light infantry in other Carthaginian armies, make of that what you will). We don't know for certain that the Libyan heavy infantry ever used longchai, though the citizens in the Third Roman War did - possibly along with gaisa, so possibly one iron-shanked pilum-like javelin and one lighter one. Or not.

[Duncan Head]

Unfortunately, Phil's book lacks references to sources, so it needs an expert eye to identify where the reconstructions are sourced from.  As we were talking shields, for example, we can guess that PB gave the infantry large round shields based on considerable numbers of Carthaginian seals which show hoplite kit.  They are shown with the typical aspis type arm and hand carry, though are desribed as made of hide with pointed bosses (the screw-in bosses aren't from PB incidentally - I think they came from a very old Guardroom debate or similar).  What was the source for these?

I think that Phil took "pointed Carthaginian shield-bosses" from the rather earlier Amathus bowl, from Cyprus and usually identified as Phoenician - see here, the two guys on the left going up the scaling-ladder. Whatever type of shield that is, it seems to have a central handgrip.

[Erpingham]

We've discussed this class of Phoenecian bowls before, I recall, as they do turn up in the Western Med.

They often seem to feature men carrying small bossed shields and short spears.  Is this what the proto-Carthaginian looked like I wonder, before they went down the aspis and doru route?

Incidentally, I found this bowl interesting, as it seems to show the round bossed shields but also larger rimmed bossless shields.  I thought for a minute I'd identified Jim's minskirted spearmen but closer inspection shows short sleeved tunic - sorry Jim

[Jim Webster]

We've discussed this class of Phoenecian bowls before, I recall, as they do turn up in the Western Med.

They often seem to feature men carrying small bossed shields and short spears.  Is this what the proto-Carthaginian looked like I wonder, before they went down the aspis and doru route?

Incidentally, I found this bowl interesting, as it seems to show the round bossed shields but also larger rimmed bossless shields.  I thought for a minute I'd identified Jim's minskirted spearmen but closer inspection shows short sleeved tunic - sorry Jim

Technically Garrison's miniskirted spearmen but close 

[PMBardunias]

I think that Phil took "pointed Carthaginian shield-bosses" from the rather earlier Amathus bowl, from Cyprus and usually identified as Phoenician - see here, the two guys on the left going up the scaling-ladder. Whatever type of shield that is, it seems to have a central handgrip.

When I started wargaming we called them Tyrian colonists.

Here is an image from a vase that probably represents a similar central grip, spiked shield.  Here the material is perhaps a rattan-like spiral woven together?

Since we are discussing round, center-grip shields, I would be remiss if I did not post this rather confused artists portrayal of the center-grip aspis.

[rodge]

By the time Hannibal invaded Italy what would be the best 15mm figures to use to represent the Italian allies?
I have (painted) a lot of Essex and Chariot Republican Romans which I could use for Italian Allies if the likelihood is that Roman equipment was used by these tribes, but just wanted to see if there were any recommendations for other figures to represent Bruttians, Samnites etc

[Jim Webster]

By the time Hannibal invaded Italy what would be the best 15mm figures to use to represent the Italian allies?
I have (painted) a lot of Essex and Chariot Republican Romans which I could use for Italian Allies if the likelihood is that Roman equipment was used by these tribes, but just wanted to see if there were any recommendations for other figures to represent Bruttians, Samnites etc

I'd go for Scutum and more 'Italian' armour and helmets

Something like the picture but with a 'proper' shield. And doubtless some with mail and some with Montefortino helmets just to confuse the issue 

[rodge]

Cheers Jim
Any pointers as to who does them? Xyston have a very small range, not sure if Donnington pass the test of time...

[Jim Webster]

Cheers Jim
Any pointers as to who does them? Xyston have a very small range, not sure if Donnington pass the test of time...

that I will leave to wiser heads
Actually I should probably have left the last question to wiser heads as well   

[Swampster]

Cheers Jim
Any pointers as to who does them? Xyston have a very small range, not sure if Donnington pass the test of time...

For such a good looking bunch, they are pretty poorly served.

Donnington's do have a naive charm but are rather dated. Xyston's are pretty good but the way the helmet feathers are done they look a bit top heavy.

TSS/QRF do Oscans with round shields in the Cartho range and allied Italians with oval shields in the Roman range.

Old Glory's are fairly decent but come with a mix of shield types.  War and Empire's only have round shields. Essex do Lucanians but not sure how much of the typical Italian features they have.
Magister Militum do one with the wicker shield and one with round.

Others do them -  e.g. Tin Soldier, Minifigs

[rodge]

Thanks Peter, had a look at Donnington at Devizes and decided against; got some of the others, not that impressed to be honest bar Xyston but the range is limited and I agree they look very top heavy.
There is a hole in the 15mm offerings for Italian Allies ready to be filled