Burgundians vs Swiss

[Chris]

Gentlemen,

Inspired by recent "research" into Murten (or Morat), I was tempted into a quasi-historical reproduction of a related scenario.

The Burgundians were defending a line of works and the Swiss were the attacking force.

I used Armati 2nd Edition as well as bits and pieces cobbled from the earlier editions of the rules.

The exercise or experiment can be seen, in all it's non-traditional "glory" here:

https://nopaintingrequired.blogspot.com/search/label/Charles%20Hedges%20His%20Bets

As always, comments and constructive criticism welcomed, though not required.

Cheers,
Chris

[Erpingham]

Interesting battle there Chris.  Couple of comments

I think you need to sort out the rate at which the Swiss close if you are to try Murten.  The whole battle pivots on the speed of the Swiss attack and the inability of the Burgundians to respond fast enough.

On artillery, individual roundshot could cause serious casualties - there are certainly Italian Wars accounts of single shots taking out 15-20 men.  But not every shot was like this and rate of fire wasn't that fast (even with breech loaders).  We know from Burgundian Wars and later Swiss battles that Swiss infantry could advance through cannon fire and still deliver a well-ordered and fierce attack when they got to handstrokes, so, in terms of "design for effect" you don't want your artillery to be too good against them.

You mention morale and giving the Swiss an elan bonus.  I think this is a good idea.  Swiss self-belief and ferocity was remarked upon at the time.  Burgundian morale is another thing.  I'd be prone to describe it as brittle, particularly the infantry.  One of the problems Charles faced was the multi-national character of his force and the variable motivations of its components.

[Chris]

Anthony,

Thanks for taking the time to read and to type a few comments/thoughts.

Agreed, something will have to be done regarding the Swiss rate of movement. I guess it depends on rules selection or perhaps the crafting of some amendment.

I read somewhere about the moral effect of primitive guns being greater, usually, than the actual damage inflicted. Again, perhaps a question of rules or another area for rule amendments. Based on the pictures I've seen, I cannot imagine that it would be easy to load such guns, so perhaps decreasing the rate of fire by another turn?

Your third point is yet another that seems ripe for rule selection or a different set. Off the top of my head, I am thinking of Simon Miller's TO THE STRONGEST! I have also looked in the Warlord Games collection, but there does not seem to be anything suitable between Hail Caesar and Pike & Shotte. Fertile ground for further experimentation and drafting specific rules, I think.

Thanks again.

Chris

[Erpingham]

I read somewhere about the moral effect of primitive guns being greater, usually, than the actual damage inflicted. Again, perhaps a question of rules or another area for rule amendments. Based on the pictures I've seen, I cannot imagine that it would be easy to load such guns, so perhaps decreasing the rate of fire by another turn?

Don't underestimate the power of massed guns.  The Swiss at Novara in 1513 are said to have suffered 700 casualties in three minutes from artillery as they advanced on the French (although it didn't stop them).  The morale effect is certainly noted - artillery ploughed (plowed) big gashes into pike blocks and there was no protection against it.  Men were literally dismembered, which would have been pretty chilling.  It may have been worse being stationary under fire than advancing though.  "Just a few minutes of this and we'll be on them and get our revenge"

I'm afraid I don't have any good figures for rates of fire for field guns - maybe others can help?  Breech loaders usually had two or three chambers which allowed them to fire quickly over a short period but how quickly I don't know.

[Chris]

Anthony,

Thanks again for weighing in and offering expert insight.

Being a student of the subject and entirely new to the Burgundian vs Swiss Wars, I wonder if there was any organization to the Burgundian artillery. I would hazard that due to weight and rate of fire and the nature of the crews (guess on my part), that there was nothing like horse artillery of Frederick's era or Wellington's army in 1815. I wonder too, what would be the relative frontage of a cannon or "battery" if they were organized as such? Recalling the one academic paper found during my research of Murten, there was a quote from a fairly contemporary source citing the damage done to the first wave of Swiss foot and horse. Absolutely horrible and graphic. Another argument for the Swiss elan I suppose.

Still waiting on that book to see where the next period of research takes me.

Too early to nominate or suggest or hint that Murten be added to the Battle Day possibles list?

Cheers,
Chris

[Erpingham]

Like all things Burgundian, the artillery was well organised logistically.  There is a lot out there on late medieval artillery set ups and it is remarkable what their logistical tail was like - carters and wagoners, carpenters, stone masons, large numbers of vehicles and horses. There is a very detailed account of the make up of the train sent on this campaign by the city of Lille.  This shows that each gun had a gunner and there were various gunners assistants to do the donkey work.

It was normal to assign horse teams to guns (along with wagons to carry powder, shot, etc.).  Going by Henry VIII's artillery train, the big guns could easily have 20-24 horses.  However, these were transport, not battlefield assets.  There were light guns that could be moved in battle but probably by manhandling, not harnessing horses.  As to spacing of guns, I'm not aware of any sources.

[Chris]

Anthony,

Apology for the delay. Have been working on another Spartan vs Vikings scenario as well as an unrelated blog post (mostly meanderings and musings about this and that).

Again, your notes and thoughts are appreciated.

Still awaiting that Vaughan book via interlibrary loan before I contemplate another swipe at Murten.


Cheers,
Chris