Quality of the Roman Soldiers of Procopius

[aligern]

Unlikely that Belisarius would go for Gaul as he had already exceeded his mandate by taking in Northern Italy. It is likely that Justinian wanted Rome back because that was the prestige site. When Belisarius recaptures Rome he has locks fitted and keys made to send back to Constantinople.

Belisarius might have had a go at Gaul if he had accepted the Goths offer and taken on the mantle of Western Roman emperor. then of course it would have been dangerous to have been away across the Alps with a very annoyed Justinian to his strategic rear.

As to Roman attacks into Gaul I venture to suggest that they are different in quality from a conquest based in Italy because the emperors concerned were operating across Roman territory, from and into Roman territory and the ones in Italy had a trump card in that they had the legitimacy  conferred by the possession of Rome. When their armies moved into Gaul they could expect cooperation and supply. It would have been very different for Belisarius because the ex Romans would be at best neutral and the Franks could draw on further armies from the north. Caesar had the enormous advantage of the Province as a safe haven and base.
Roy

[Patrick Waterson]

Belisarius accepting the crown from the Goths is one of my favourite what-if alternate histories.  Justinian would indeed have been annoyed, but bringing together a force capable of doing something about it might have been another matter.

At the very least Belisarius would have been able to re-run Majorian's campaigns with the added bonus of Africa being a ripe plum.  The one significant unknown is how the Visigoths would have reacted: would they have been willing to join with Belisarius against the Franks?  If so, the Frankish kingdom might have been quite short-lived and Belisarius may have achieved at least the same kind of suzerainty over Gaul as Aetius held, perhaps even more.

Incidentally, anyone who has Imperium Romanum II will probaby remember the last (hypothetical) scenario on exactly this subject: in that game, which may underrate the Franks, Belisarian conquest of Gaul is practically a foregone conclusion, provided Belisarius can administer a good drubbing to the Visigoths before the slow-moving Frankish armies can collect and march and before Justinian can shake loose a convincing army and a good general (Narses or the 2-rated eastern leader) from Illyria and the east (which usually requires first reducing the number of available Persians).

Forgive the fond bit of nostalgia.  Back to the topic.

Patrick

[Duncan Head]

Unlikely that Belisarius would go for Gaul as he had already exceeded his mandate by taking in Northern Italy. It is likely that Justinian wanted Rome back because that was the prestige site. When Belisarius recaptures Rome he has locks fitted and keys made to send back to Constantinople.

But Justin's point about possible Frankish embassies depends not on Belisarius' intentions, but on the Franks' and Gallo-Romans' perceptions of his possible next move. They probably didn't know exactly what his mandate was - just that Imperial armies seemed to be moving in their direction.

[aligern]

 I rather presume that Justinian had told them his war aims when he engaged in diplomatic activities to provike them to attack the Goths in 536. I would have to go look up whether we have an actual embassy  recorded, but it would fit with the modus operandi of the Byzantines in say 507  where attacks were co ordinated.

I still rest on the likelihood that, if Procopius had met a Frankish embassy he'd have recorded it and most certainly that if he had met a Frankish embassy sporting Roman kit we would hear about it.

The Franks in Northern Italy in the first Gothic war   (up to 541) have come as allies of the Goths who are surprised when the Franks turn on them.
Roy

[Justin Swanton]

If the Justinian did engage in diplomatic activities with the Franks there must have been an embassy of sorts - some kind of face-to-face communication. Presuming that Belisarius treated with Theudebert (who probably didn't have armed Gallo-romans in his entourage) it is at least possible that Gallo-romans from Childebert's realm visited Belisarius in their personal capacity to gauge how they would be affected by the big events. It would have been one visit amongst many and hence not worthy of entering the political account which focussed on the central events.

Clovis had received the dignity of consul from the Eastern Empire after his victory at Vouille, with the implication that he was still technically part of the Roman Empire (a bit like the Commonwealth) and the further implication that the Eastern Empire could intervene in Frankish affairs if it saw fit. That surely would have been on everyone's mind in the mid 500's as the Imperial armies moved westwards.

[Duncan Head]

Belisarius accepting the crown from the Goths is one of my favourite what-if alternate histories.  Justinian would indeed have been annoyed, but bringing together a force capable of doing something about it might have been another matter.

Ah, fond memories of Lest Darkness Fall. Though B isn't King in that scenario, he does turn up as a general of the Gothic kingdom.

[Patrick Waterson]

This paper is a perhaps useful overview of the Armorican question.

http://www.ict.griffith.edu.au/wiseman/DECB/Wiseman-Dalmas-JAEMA.pdf

[Justin Swanton]

Very interesting, Patrick. Let me make a couple of off-the-cuff remarks.

1. I think it a bit of a reach to identify the Armoricans of Procopius with the Bretons living (substantially) in the western peninsula of Armorica. The original Roman Armorica covered a region roughly analogous with the Roman domain of Aegidius and Syagrius north of the Loire and extending beyond the Seine, incorporating the four Roman provinces of Lugdunensis II, III, IV Senonia and Belgica II. The Armoricans themselves are said by Procopius to have united with the Franks and become a single people, which to my mind implies more than simple nominal vassalage, as was the case with the Bretons.

2. Procopius records that the Armoricans became soldiers of the Romans in the 470's, the time of the Visigothic conquest of Spain. Nothing suggests that these were not Armoricans proper - inhabitants of the Roman territory north of the Loire - and not just Bretons (though of course it does not exclude the latter).

3. Syagrius must have ruled the whole Roman territory north of the Loire, not just a portion of the former province of Belgica II north of the Seine. Remigius, bishop of Reims, in a letter to Clovis, relates that he has heard that the Frankish chieftain 'has taken up/received the administration of Belgica II." Such a phrase, from such a source, can only mean that Clovis was granted jurisdiction over the Roman province by a Roman authority - and not that he took it by force. The only Roman authority left in the area was Syagrius. If all Syagrius himself controlled was Belgica II then that effectively would have meant a capitulation to the Frankish chief, an abdication of political power. But Procopius later recounts how Syagrius was not afraid to meet Clovis in battle, implying that the Roman dux had enough military muscle to be confident of beating him. If he no longer ruled anything, where did he get that military power from? The only logical conclusion is that he still exercised control over the other three provinces of Armorica and drew his military strength from them.

4. The 'other Roman soldiers' that gave themselves and lands over to the Armoricans and Franks were not ethnically distinct from the Armoricans who had fought against the Franks. One needs to understand the social situation in northern Roman Gaul. Chris Wickham in Framing the Early Middle Ages brings forward convincing evidence that the Gallo-roman aristocracy north of the Seine remained in possession of their estates, perhaps more so than anywhere else in the former western Empire except Italy. Furthermore, they had become militarised, faced with the constant barbarian threat from the nearby German frontier. This led them to abandon the civilian rural life of otium practiced by their southern colleagues in their splendid villas, and move to the towns. They possessed bucellarii, and after the collapse of the Imperial system, became the natural heirs of the Roman military units still stationed in northern Gaul. In Syagrius they recognised the last figure of Roman authority. After his defeat at Soissons (and probable deposition and flight) they were effectively autonomous. Each would react against Clovis in his own way. Some would resist the Franks; others, further away from the Frankish threat and nearer the Visigothic one, would not. It was these latter and their troops who, at the final peace, would have to decide who to join: the Gallo-roman nobility joined with Clovis, or the Visigoths. They chose the former.