Something's Not Right

[Monad]

270 rowers for a quinquereme. That is why it is a supremely inefficient transport.

That is not my quote. David wrote that. David's name did not appear when I hit the quote button. Having problems with the quotes system lately.

The reason that people might dismiss your Pythagorean numerical theories is because they have studied the sources as much as you have, but are not situating their appreciation on a preconceived theory, but also applying pragmatism and common sense.

This posting was about the Roman fleet. Never mentioned Pythagoras for the Roman fleet. Also, in other posts I use Pythagoras because I standby my research, and quite truthfully, I am not concerned if people dismiss it.

You are entitled to your opinion but please do not get snippy.

It is a well known fact that electronic communication causes a lot of arguments due to the lack of emotional signs that are portrayed during a face to face conversation. Please do not tell me I am getting snippy when I am not. That is your (incorrect) perception. Quite seriously, I could same the same thing about your response.

[Monad]

When you say all these numbers are taken from the late Roman army (which I might have highlighted in red) what actually do you mean by that.

Sorry, what I mean is my research into the Late Roman army. I used the primary sources and the tribal system of the time (my research) and from that formulated what a Late Roman legion was. Then to prove if it holds up, collect all the data relating to the period and then make comparisons. The data found in The Acts of the Disputation of Archelaus concerning the killed and captured Christians conforms of fits in quite well, or just damn accurate, because those numbers have been based on the vexillation organisation of the Roman army. That is my finding.

The Second Book of Chronicles also uses the number 7,700 for the size of a flock of rams and goats. My personal take on this is that it could be that the original author recognised the similarity to the biblical number of 7,700 rams and goats, and therefore, partition those taken prisoners and wounded to closely recreate that figure.

Also, the historian Macarius, mentions 1,104 soldiers were stationed at Melitene. I also get 1,104 soldiers.  Same result with Saint Meletius' example of 252 Christian soldiers killed. Both Macrius and Saint Meletius omit the artificers. During his time, Livy, Polybius etc. also omit the artificers on many occasions. So take the 252 soldiers multiply by four, result is 1,008 soldiers, deduct from Macarius' 1,104 soldiers leaves 96 soldiers, cavalry maybe?

Many of the accounts of the martyrdom of the Christian saints, such as the Passion of Saint Florian and the Passion of Saint George, make reference to units of 40 soldiers. So Saint Meletius' example of 252 soldiers, taking the premise that a cohort still had six centuries, 40 x 6 = 240, deducted from 252 leaves a residue of 12, divided by 6 centuries per cohort allocates each century 2 officers.

The Passion of Saint George mentions 2,408 Christian soldiers were executed by the order of Dadianus the governor of Bithynia. So, 1104 x 2 = 2,208 minus 2,408 leaves 200, cavalry maybe? Synesios gives the various sizes of the Unnigardae cavalry at 40 men, 160 men and 200 men. At the battle of Strasbourg Zosimus mentions the poor performance of 600 of Julian's schola cavalry. Also at the same battle, Ammianus reports that Julian had with him 200 schola cavalry. 600 is divisible by 200.

Returning to the 40 soldiers, Vegetius cites that from each century four infantry were selected for sentry-duty. The Passion of Saint George also mentions four quaternions (a set of four) of soldiers. The Passion of Luxurius, Camerinus and Cisellus also has four groups of four soldiers.

As I said in a previous post, I don't need to bash squares into round holes in order to fit a theory. My premise has always been to let the data do the talking. I don't need to reshape it or bend it. I have powerful resources at my fingertips, that is the Pythagorean system and the internal organisation of the tribal system, which is a calendar. The Late Roman legion came into existence during the reign of Diocletian. Early Christian writings support this also, with centuries of 100 men mentioned during Diocletian's persecution of the Christians and also units of 40 soldiers during Diocletian's reign, which I know are juniors because the seniores have been removed. Seniores are part of the legion, seniores get detached legion becomes smaller, so different legion or unit sizes. Then the reserves are detached, legion becomes smaller again.

So Jim, my modus operandi is the determine the size of a legion via the tribal system of that time frame, then break it down into centuries, maniples, cohorts, ordines, vexillations, arithmos, tagma  and numerus and then compare it to the data in the ancient sources. Twenty years later, it still holds up. 

[Jim Webster]

When you say all these numbers are taken from the late Roman army (which I might have highlighted in red) what actually do you mean by that.

Sorry, what I mean is my research into the Late Roman army. I used the primary sources and the tribal system of the time (my research) and from that formulated what a Late Roman legion was. Then to prove if it holds up, collect all the data relating to the period and then make comparisons. The data found in The Acts of the Disputation of Archelaus concerning the killed and captured Christians conforms of fits in quite well, or just damn accurate, because those numbers have been based on the vexillation organisation of the Roman army. That is my finding.

The Disputation of Archelaus was in 278AD, so I'm not sure it was 'Late Roman'. Diocletian didn't come to power until 284AD

The Second Book of Chronicles also uses the number 7,700 for the size of a flock of rams and goats. My personal take on this is that it could be that the original author recognised the similarity to the biblical number of 7,700 rams and goats, and therefore, partition those taken prisoners and wounded to closely recreate that figure.

We know that The book of Chronicles was translated into Greek and divided into two books in the Septuagint in the mid-3rd century BC. It was written in Hebrew at some point after 539BC and before the 3rd century BC. So perhaps 600 years before Archelaus

[DBS]

The Passion of Saint George mentions 2,408 Christian soldiers were executed by the order of Dadianus the governor of Bithynia. So, 1104 x 2 = 2,208 minus 2,408 leaves 200, cavalry maybe?

Even if one believes such sources accurately record numbers, and one believes that a Roman governor would execute as many as 2408 of his provincial army, a rather high percentage of his available forces to put it mildly, why would one assume that he was executing by unit, rather than individuals?  Even decimation, the most severe Roman military punishment, was carefully designed to leave 90% of a unit intact.  So I really do not think one can draw any inferences for unit size from such numbers.

[Monad]

The Disputation of Archelaus was in 278AD, so I'm not sure it was 'Late Roman'. Diocletian didn't come to power until 284AD

Well, Jim, thank you so much for that. I'm still polishing Volume 3 so haven't gotten to start polishing Volume 4 yet. The Pythagorean system has three major time intervals, and I have used the right time system that the Romans should have used. I went back and looked at the time interval systems and bang, one of the intervals of time produces 276 AD. This time system uses Rome's date of conception as the starting point and not Rome's founding date. And it has cause a lot of confusion with the Roman priesthood. Too many time systems in the Pythagoras' system.

For the year 401 AD, Claudian relates that after cutting open two wolfs that attacked the emperor's cavalry escort, who at the time was accompanied by the Roman general Stilicho: "In each animal, on its being cut open, was found a human hand, in the stomach of one a left hand, in that of the other a right was discovered, both still twitching, the fingers stretched out and suffused with living blood."

One interpretation of the omen as given by Claudian believed that the might of Roman was to be unimpaired. However, another interpretation of the portent believed the portent threatened destruction on Rome and her empire. Claudian goes on to say: "then they reckoned up the years and, cutting off the flight of the twelfth vulture, tried to shorten the centuries of Rome's existence by hastening the end."

The 12th vulture is the Pythagorean saecula system of time. It should be the correct system to follow as it is the most sacred. However, the Pythagorean tonal/zodiac combined system and its time intervals have been employed. I do not know how to truly thank you Jim, except to say I am extremely in your debt. Happy to make a note in this section of the volume thanking you for pointing this out, if that is ok with you.

[Jim Webster]

The Disputation of Archelaus was in 278AD, so I'm not sure it was 'Late Roman'. Diocletian didn't come to power until 284AD

Well, Jim, thank you so much for that. I'm still polishing Volume 3 so haven't gotten to start polishing Volume 4 yet. The Pythagorean system has three major time intervals, and I have used the right time system that the Romans should have used. I went back and looked at the time interval systems and bang, one of the intervals of time produces 276 AD. This time system uses Rome's date of conception as the starting point and not Rome's founding date. And it has cause a lot of confusion with the Roman priesthood.

Not half as much as it has caused me. I cannot see why the book of Chronicles, written in Hebrew by people who might have been influenced by Babylonian thought, should be interested in Pythagoras?
Given he started his school in Italy about 530BC it would make the Jews very early adopters indeed!

Note that if Pythagoras had been such an influence on Jewish thought, Jewish philosophers like Philo of Alexandria who majored on Judaism as comparable with Greek thought would have picked up on it.Instead he got caught up with Plato and Neoplatonism 

[Monad]

Even if one believes such sources accurately record numbers, and one believes that a Roman governor would execute as many as 2408 of his provincial army, a rather high percentage of his available forces to put it mildly, why would one assume that he was executing by unit, rather than individuals?

I didn't put that number in the primary source, so I cannot answer you question. Maybe the author used a army unit size as it was convenient and they wanted to exaggerate the crime.

So I really do not think one can draw any inferences for unit size from such numbers

I can, and I have, and I have done it because it can be corroborated with other data.

[Monad]

Not half as much as it has caused me. I cannot see why the book of Chronicles, written in Hebrew by people who might have been influenced by Babylonian thought, should be interested in Pythagoras?

I'm lost here Jim. The author of The Disputation of Archelaus was using the 7,700 figure, not Pythagoras.

Given he started his school in Italy about 530BC it would make the Jews very early adopters indeed!

Ah, now I see. You are not aware of the written history of Pythagoras' life. Pythagoras supposedly gained his knowledge in Egypt and from the Jews living in Egypt. All of Pythagoras' teaching are taken from the Jews and Egyptians. He studied there for 22 years before moving to Croton in Southern Italy. Pythagoras' just plagiarised the knowledge gained in Egypt and utilised it when designing the Rome Pythagorean system. That is why the Roman Pythagorean system can be found in the Book of Revelation, which in turn can be found in the Amduat, the Book of Aker, Book of the Dead, Book of the Devine Cow, Book of Gates, Book of Caverns, Books of Heaven, Book of Night, plus text and painting on the ceilings and walls of the pharaoh's tombs. See "Egyptian Origin of the Book of Revelation," John H. C. Pippy.

Note that if Pythagoras had been such an influence on Jewish thought, Jewish philosophers like Philo of Alexandria who majored on Judaism as comparable with Greek thought would have picked up on it.Instead he got caught up with Plato and Neoplatonism

Other way around. Jewish philosophy influenced Pythagoras. The Pythagorean cosmos was influenced by the mystical meaning of the Jewish tabernacle (place of worship), Clement of Alexandria writes there were seven circuits around the temple, the motions of the seven planets were outlined, and the seven eyes of God were the seven spirits. This highlights that many of Pythagoras' concepts, especially concerning the hebdomad system. In the Book of Revelation, each of the 12 tribes of Israel number 12,000 men, for a total of 144,000 men. Pippy's investigation is again, too large to reproduce here. However, by dividing the 144,000 men of the 12 tribes by the Pythagorean sacred integer 10, we coincidentally arrive at the Pythagorean five elements amounting to 14,400 degrees.

Heaven    6480 degrees
Fire    720 degrees
Air    1440 degrees
Earth    2160 degrees
Water    3600 degrees
    14400 degrees

That is what the whole Pythagorean system is built on, 14,400 degrees. From that, one can create the 35 tribes and the whole Roman system.