Return to Asculum

[willb]

This past weekend I ran the battle of Asculum using Scutarii at the Peanut Wars Mini Convention.   A full battle report and additional pictures along with some details of rules mechanics can be found at: http://18clovehamhock.blogspot.com/2014/04/return-to-asculum.html

[Justin Swanton]

This past weekend I ran the battle of Asculum using Scutarii at the Peanut Wars Mini Convention.   A full battle report and additional pictures along with some details of rules mechanics can be found at: http://18clovehamhock.blogspot.com/2014/04/return-to-asculum.html

Your battle report made me feel much better. I am doing a PBEM Optio playtest game of Pharsalus with 79 bases on the Caesarian side and 153 on the Pompeian, and wondering if it wasn't rather a lot of bases....

For interest, how long did the game last?

[willb]

The battle took about 2 1/2 hours to three hours.   I did not look at the actual start time, though it was probably closer to 11:30 than 11:00 and ended about 2:00.   This does not include set up and putting away the figures which took about another hour or so.  I should also note that if the Romans had replaced more of their front rank units with fresh units, that the battle would have lasted longer with at least two or more complete turns instead of ending on turn 5.

[Justin Swanton]

For a game that size that is impressive speed. What ruleset did you use?

[Patrick Waterson]

Scutarii, a newly-developed set from the USA - Bill, is this set now readily available?

[Imperial Dave]

I've got a copy although I havent had chance to try it out yet

[Chuck the Grey]

Scutarii, a newly-developed set from the USA - Bill, is this set now readily available?

According to The Miniatures Page hobby news, Scutarii is now available from On Military Matters or Game Kastle, both in USA. Apparently this is the second edition of the rules and the cost is around $30 USA.

[willb]

It is also available from Caliver Books and through LULU.  There is a full page advertisement in Miniature Wargames 372 in the Salute section of the magazine.   Hoplite Research has a web site on LULU with all their titles.    Their url is http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/HRGWORLDS and the direct link to the rules page is http://www.lulu.com/shop/william-butler/broadsword-ancients-scutarii/paperback/product-21447260.html   

regards,
bill

[Patrick Waterson]

Thanks, Bill (and Chuck).

Might it be possible to ask what sets this rules set apart from previous offerings?

[willb]

Patrick that is an interesting question.  30 years ago when I wrote the first edition, one of the top wargame rule authors had written an article in one of the gaming magazines stating that there is nothing new when it comes to rules its just how you put the pieces together.  The mechanics of how the rules are played have changed from the original version, but all that occurs prior to the first move is still the same as the first edition.   One of the people who played the first edition wrote some comments about it (I believe it may have been in Slingshot, but it has been 30 years between editions and I don't really remember if that was the publication).  His comment was that it was one of the better methods of determining the battlefield terrain.   That procedure is as follows:  both players have a limited number of pieces that they may place with some restrictions as to where they may place them.   They alternate placing features and after all features are placed both roll a die for each feature with the higher score determining if the feature remains or not.  Ties go to the person who placed the terrain.   The side with the higher scouting total gets to add to their die roll.

Instead of a fixed I go You go turn, players dice for initiative with the winner choosing to move first or second during a turn.   Moving first in a turn may allow you to gain a tactical advantage, but having to test morale before making your move could result in units failing their morale test when you need them to pass.  of course moving first could also result in additional damage to your opponents units prior to their morale tests.

Missile fire does not occur at a fixed point in the turn sequence.  Instead units may use their missiles at any point during their move.   You could have a unit of horse archers shoot at a target prior to riding away,  a second unit ride up and shoot at the same target part way through its move and ride away, and a third unit end its move within missile range of the same target and shoot at it.   Possibly creating a hole in the enemy line.

I actually like rules that remove figures for casualties, but that tends to create excessive casualties for the winner of an ancients battle.   So I decided to use a system that accounted for fatigue, casualties, and reduction in morale instead.  Armies that use some sort of multiple line system or keep a fresh reserve instead of putting everyone in the front are more likely to win against those that don't.  Earlier this year I ran a Romans vs Fantasy Army game one of the clubs.  At the start of the game  I explained to the Roman commanders how to use their units to relieve the front ranks instead of putting everyone up front.  One of the Roman commanders ended up engaging some Elf spear men (the equivalent of Spartan hoplites)  and instead of keeping the second rank in place moved it up to create a solid line.  Without the second line to take the place of those units that were in trouble, his command routed.  Replacing all the worn units with fresh ones during this re-fight of Asculum would have kept the Roman center from collapsing.   This was the third time that I ran this battle.   During the first re-fight the Roman commanders kept cycling in fresh units    Near the end of the battle both sides had many units that were nearing the point of breaking.   The Romans had routed one of the Tarantine phalanx units creating a major hole in the Greek line and might have won the battle if the Greeks had not gained the initiative for the last turn and chose to have the Romans move first.   Though the Roman army routed, Greek loses were so high that it was a "Pyrrhic victory"

Asculum is intended to be played with more than one person per side with three per side being best.   This battle only had one player per side (all the other games at the mini-con also had only two per game that day).   Though I helped with moving troops, the battle came to a conclusion in less than three hours of play.   The first re-fight took a little over four hours to come to a conclusion.  So games would probably be decided within few hours.

The rules do include a points system for creating balanced games and army lists from other publishers can be adapted fairly easily.  There are also recommended maximum points per table size in order to keep the table from having wall to wall troops and to allow room to outflank the opposing army.   The game mechanics are not complicated.  The rules explain what can be done and allow players to make mistakes.  There are no rules that say you cannot charge elephants or the front of pike armed infantry with cavalry, but players will find that doing so is not a good idea.  Unless the cavalry is very lucky and their opponents are very unlucky, the cavalry will be soundly defeated.

Hoplite Research has set up a Yahoo group for Scutarii and additional battles will be posted there.

Regards,
Bill

[Patrick Waterson]

Thanks, Bill.

It sounds as if this is a good set for someone who wants a reasonably rapid game while keeping at least one foot in history.  The initiative system will tend to constrain sensible players from doing anything unrealistic because they will have to keep in mind the possibility of a double move by the opponent if their own side moves first in a turn.

One question about missiles: say we have three mounted archer units all riding in, shooting and riding away again - if their target is an archer unit, does it get to shoot at one of them or all of them?  If just one, does it have the choice of which one?

The 'composite casualty' system (fatigue, casualties and morale rolled into one) looks a good one, with shades of WRG 7th, and to my taste is preferable to the DB-system approach, but that is personal preference.

The terrain selection system is very reminiscent of WRG rules, but having a higher scouting total allow one to stand a better chance of keeping terrain is a nice extra touch.

Hoplite Research has set up a Yahoo group for Scutarii and additional battles will be posted there.

Is it this one?

[willb]

One question about missiles: say we have three mounted archer units all riding in, shooting and riding away again - if their target is an archer unit, does it get to shoot at one of them or all of them?  If just one, does it have the choice of which one?

[Is it this one?

That is the Yahoo Group.   Missile units normally shoot with two dice, so the dice could be split between two targets or both against one.   Although the horse archers are riding up one at a time, the situation could be compared to a unit being shot at by three opponents at the same time and having to select which one(s) to return fire at.

[Imperial Dave]

Although no used the set in anger, I can comment that Hoplite Research did respond very quickly to first edition comments via the yahoo group

[Justin Swanton]

Instead of a fixed I go You go turn, players dice for initiative with the winner choosing to move first or second during a turn.   Moving first in a turn may allow you to gain a tactical advantage, but having to test morale before making your move could result in units failing their morale test when you need them to pass.  of course moving first could also result in additional damage to your opponents units prior to their morale tests.

Do morale tests determine whether a unit moves at all or just whether it attacks an enemy unit? In other words are morale tests a kind of mechanism to replicate command limitations? On the subject, can units multi-move in a turn?

Missile fire does not occur at a fixed point in the turn sequence.  Instead units may use their missiles at any point during their move.   You could have a unit of horse archers shoot at a target prior to riding away,  a second unit ride up and shoot at the same target part way through its move and ride away, and a third unit end its move within missile range of the same target and shoot at it.   Possibly creating a hole in the enemy line.

So a missile-capable unit can shoot back during the other player's move? If it does, is it still capable of shooting in its next own move?

I actually like rules that remove figures for casualties, but that tends to create excessive casualties for the winner of an ancients battle.   So I decided to use a system that accounted for fatigue, casualties, and reduction in morale instead.

Tell me a bit more about how the fatigue/casualty/morale system works.

(my plan of course is that if I ask enough questions and get enough answers I won't have to buy a copy.  )

[willb]

Do morale tests determine whether a unit moves at all or just whether it attacks an enemy unit? In other words are morale tests a kind of mechanism to replicate command limitations? On the subject, can units multi-move in a turn? 

Failing a morale test will result in restraints on what a unit can do and/or dictate what a unit will do.  I am not sure what you mean by multi-move.   Units have a maximum normal distance they can move in a turn.

So a missile-capable unit can shoot back during the other player's move? If it does, is it still capable of shooting in its next own move?

yes, it can

Tell me a bit more about how the fatigue/casualty/morale system works.

(my plan of course is that if I ask enough questions and get enough answers I won't have to buy a copy.  ) 

Units accumulate damage throughout the battle. The more damage the greater the chance of a morale failure.

We have a couple of players in the area who use 1/72 plastic figures on two inch bases.   The rules cover this plus the standard DBX, WAB, and warmaster bases so people do not have to rebase their armies.