Mounted knight salute with lance

[Stephen Wendell]

Another knight/lance question for you smart guys!
(I'm writing a story about a knight hence the questions.)

How does a mounted knight salute with a lance?
In my particular case, the knight has just won a joust and he presents himself before his queen who is seated in the stands.

(I couldn't find the answer on Google, though I did learn how a lance corporal salutes Queen Elizabeth.)

Thanks for your help!
Stephen

[Patrick Waterson]

Which century and which realm is the story set in, please, Stephen?

And is the queen the Marshal of the Tournament or just present as the centrepiece lady?

Saluting with a lance is simple enough: it would usually be carried upright, and to salute one would dip it forward no more than 45 degrees and preferably not more than 30 degrees (any more looks aggressive) and then return it to the upright position.

The question in my mind is whether he would actually do this or just hand his lance to his square, dismount, unhelm, wait to be called and then walk up and kneel before her, which would be proper if Her Majesty were the Marshal of the Tournament.  At least it would be proper in Norman England; a victorious knight in Norman France might show somewhat more panache.  Hence if we can pin down the culture (or if fiction, cultural equivalent) the answer might suggest itself.

My learned colleagues may have more - or even something different - to say on the subject.

[Stephen Wendell]

Hi Patrick,

The setting is Arthurian England.
Launcelot has won a joust against Meliagrance which obliges Meliagrance to free Guenever from his tower prison. So it isn't a tournament and the three of them are the only characters present. Certainly though, the queen is the centerpiece.

I've considered having him dismount and I haven't completely thrown out the idea. But it's a question of ambiance (that would take some explaining).

Then there's the banner.
Guenever used Launcelot's banner as the signal to begin each ride. So I thought she'd give it back to him.
In a formal tournament, isn't there a ceremony where the lady of whom the knight is champion ties his banner to the end of his lance? (I want to say I saw that in a movie, maybe Ivanhoe.)
This would happen after the salute, of course.

[Patrick Waterson]

Thanks for the context, Stephen: it sounds like an interesting novel.

It was usual for a lady's favour to be given - and worn - before any action started in a tournament.  I presume this is a straight Arthurian duel to free the lady from durance vile or at least undesired rather than a tournament as such, so unless Meliagrance had let Guenever out to watch the fun before the duel started, she would have had no chance to confer her favour, usually a scarf or similar, occasionally something more intimate like a ribbon or handkerchief, upon her chosen champion.  Had she been able to do so, I think it would have been more usual for the knight to wear it on his helmet or perhaps around his arm rather than tied around the end of his lance, where it could easily be soiled or lost.  Then again Launcelot could be pretty confident of putting down his opponent first time, so maybe he would tie it on the end of his lance.

I get the impression that at tournaments such favours were usually conferred secretly, not least because the lady's husband might be less than pleased if she paid open attention to another man.

And as Launcelot has just won the joust, has unseated his foe who is presumably in no shape to do anything except lie on the ground groaning and Launcelot is still holding his lance, and this is an Arthurian setting, I think you are free to either have him salute her by turning towards her and bringing his lance up to the vertical or do so by bringing it to the vertical, turning to face her, and lowering it forward 30 degrees or so and holding the position a moment before returning it to the vertical again.

What he does after that is entirely up to you.  One advantage about an Arthurian setting is that it is possible to bend the rules a little.

[Jim Webster]

Also consider the underlying symbolism

The salute with the lance dipped means you're still on your horse and you're perfectly prepared to fight or if necessary retire
The salute by dismounting, kneeling or whatever means that you have effectively disarmed yourself and placed yourself at the disposal of whoever is in charge.

The latter could be construed as showing considerable trust and respect for whoever you're saluting

[Mark G]

Very good point Jim, and quite an interesting bit to put on a novel

[Erpingham]

To be authentically Arthurian, you are probably looking towards French or English practice of the High Middle Ages, even into the Tudor period (though I think I draw a halt after Henry VIII - the Elizabethan tournament seems to have a different feel).

For general inspiration there are some good reads here http://faculty.nipissingu.ca/muhlberger/CHRONIQU/texts/deedsch.htm

In terms of the question of saluting, I'm not sure a knight would necessarily salute lance in hand after a joust - the lance was usually broken or was handed off to a page between runs.  So our hero might ride up to the viewing stand, remove helmet and bow in the saddle.  Prize giving seems to have usually taken place on foot after the joust, so this might be an option too.

[Nick Harbud]

According to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salute the modern salute originates from the practice of medieval knights raising their visors to recognise each other.

[Erpingham]

According to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salute the modern salute originates from the practice of medieval knights raising their visors to recognise each other.

I've read this elsewhere and, I have to admit, have filed it in my "medieval origin myths" section liked the "two fingered salute".  There is, IIRC, a version that relates this to tournament practice - knights lifted their visors as they approached the officiating dignatory of the tournament at the beginning to confirm their identity, so that no Heath Ledger type non-nobles got into a joust incognito.  My concern with it is military saluting as we know it is late 19th century (?) and from the 16th to early 19th century saluting was by removing the hat, later reduced to reaching up to touch the brim. This brim touching I'd suspect is the real origin of the modern salute.

However, good evidence for the medieval version could be out there - does anyone know?

[Jim Webster]

Very good point Jim, and quite an interesting bit to put on a novel

It's a nice way to set a scene and give the feel for a situation, have him running the options through his mind as he decides which to do

Jim

[Stephen Wendell]

It's a nice way to set a scene and give the feel for a situation, have him running the options through his mind as he decides which to do

LOL Jim, that would be fun but my character is only 6!
I do intend for the little guy to become a wargamer, so I'll keep that in mind for a later story.

Thank you all for your input.
I'll reply to the thread with a link to the story when I've finished it. Unless I have another question first -- the last scene is the feast!

[Patrick Waterson]

However, good evidence for the medieval version could be out there - does anyone know?

If it is, it seems to be buried in the X-files, although the subject has been discussed elsewhere, with conclusions not dissimilar to our own.

[Patrick Waterson]

The Metropolitan Museum of Art is confident enough to state the following in its list of misconceptions about arms and armour:

"The military salute originates from the raising of a visor.—Uncertain.

It is sometimes argued that the military salute originated during the Roman Republic, when assassinations were common and citizens were required to approach public officials with their right hand raised in order to show that they did not conceal a weapon. A more common account is that the modern military salute originated from men in armor raising the visors of their helmets before greeting their lord or comrades. This gesture would have made a person both recognizable as well as vulnerable, at the same time demonstrating that the right hand (i.e., the sword hand) did not carry a weapon, both being signs of trust and good intention.

Although these theories are compelling (and romantic), there is actually little evidence to support either of them as the direct origin of the modern military salute. As for the Roman practice, it would be virtually impossible to prove that it continued through fifteen centuries (or was revived during the Renaissance), leading in a straight line to the modern military salute. There is also no direct evidence for the visor theory, although it is more recent. The majority of helmets for war after around 1600 were increasingly of types not fitted with visors, and helmets became rare on European battlefields after about 1700.

Be that as it may, English seventeenth-century military records indicate that "the formal act of saluting was to be by removal of headdress." By about 1745, an English regiment, the Coldstream Guards, appears to have amended this procedure, being instructed to "clap their hands to their hats and bow as they pass by." This practice was quickly adopted by other English regiments and may have spread from England to America (via the War of Independence) and Continental Europe (through the Napoleonic Wars). Accordingly, the truth may lie somewhere in the middle, with the military salute originating as a gesture of respect and politeness parallel to the civilian custom of raising or tipping one's hat, possibly in combination with the warrior's custom of showing an unarmed right hand."

This generally accords with what I find elsewhere, which at least shows the consensus of present thinking.

[Jim Webster]

It certainly hangs together and makes sense Patrick

[Patrick Waterson]

Thanks, Jim, though the Metropolitan Museum of Art or their source deserves the credit rather than my poor self.

At least we have a coherent and tenable idea about how and when the modern salute developed.