Later Spanish - Pike classification

[Martin Smith]

Hi
In my shiny DBA v3 lists the IV/68e list for the Spanish 1495-1503 there's 'fast pike' /3Pk, ie loose fast moving pikemen. In the following list (IV/68f 1504-1515) they're listed as 4Pk/ solid, slow n steady pikemen.
Is this a reflection of the DBMM lists, and is there any mention of the change in troop style, or is it a misprint(?) ??

Any help appreciated.

Martin

[Swampster]

The MM list does change them. I don't think there is any comment as why, but I should think it is the experience in Italy which causes it.

[Patrick Waterson]

I think it coincides with the evolution of the tercio as a battlefield formation in the wake of Gonzalo de Cordoba's reorganisation of the Spanish army in Italy (as Peter indicates).  Slow, solid, steady Spanish pikes suggest 'tercio', and the time frame looks right.

[Martin Smith]

So 'fast' pike in the early list?

[Patrick Waterson]

Not being a DB-expert, I would not know exactly what 'fast pike' signifies, apart from being a difficult catch for a fisherman.

Anyone else?

[Tim]

DBMM Fast Pike are defined as 'representing foot able to fight individually hand-to-hand and to skirmish but emphasizing mobility in difficult terrain rather than cohesion or aggression' and 'Foot partly or entirely lacking effective shields and relying on long spear or cut-and-thrust pole weapon' (these words are taken from the DBM definition of their equivalent but from memory the words aere very similar in DBMM.  The Pike Ordinary would be more like landsknechts or part of a colunela.

The DBMM Revised list notes for the Pike Ordinary are 'Recently arrived Galician and Asturian javelinmen were important in the destruction of a Swiss force at Seminara in 1503 (AD)'.  Don't see that as Pike.

[Patrick Waterson]

Thanks, Tim.

The DBMM Revised list notes for the Pike Ordinary are 'Recently arrived Galician and Asturian javelinmen were important in the destruction of a Swiss force at Seminara in 1503 (AD)'.  Don't see that as Pike.

Indeed puzzling, unless the Swiss are the Pike in question.  But would they be Ordinary?

[Dangun]

but emphasizing mobility in difficult terrain rather than cohesion or aggression

Isn't this a little odd?
Most pike would have probably emphasized not going anywhere near difficult terrain.

[nikgaukroger]

I think it coincides with the evolution of the tercio as a battlefield formation in the wake of Gonzalo de Cordoba's reorganisation of the Spanish army in Italy (as Peter indicates).  Slow, solid, steady Spanish pikes suggest 'tercio', and the time frame looks right.

The tercio doesn't appear until the 1530's - 1534 or 1535 is the date usually given. Before that there was the (smaller) colunela which started about 1505. 1503 would be when the Spanish merged the sword & shield men with the pikemen rather than having them as separate bodies.

[Erpingham]

but emphasizing mobility in difficult terrain rather than cohesion or aggression

Isn't this a little odd?
Most pike would have probably emphasized not going anywhere near difficult terrain.

Maybe the author had early Swiss in mind, especially as these pikemen can be armed with "cut-and-thrust poleweapons"?  14th and 15th century Swiss strike me as the most all-terrain "pikemen" you can get and did have a reputation for rapid movement by medieval infantry standards.  Don't know how that relates to early 16th century Spanish though.

[Tim]

Patrick

The Pike are Superior in DBMM terms but these are not the Pike I was referring to - those are the Colunela either Fast or Ordinary depending upon which of the 1503 AD options your believe Phil is referring to for the battle.

In DBM and DBMM you would not put them into anything other than an open field (and frankly probably would not in DBR to be honest).

(If FoGR is more your thing, they have a special category called Determined Foot, Superior or Elite, mainly for the Swiss.  While they don't like fighting in the shrubbery they can do it and still be OK.)

Regards
Tim

[Patrick Waterson]

The tercio doesn't appear until the 1530's - 1534 or 1535 is the date usually given.

Are you sure about that?  I thought they were starring at Pavia in 1525.

Before that there was the (smaller) colunela which started about 1505. 1503 would be when the Spanish merged the sword & shield men with the pikemen rather than having them as separate bodies.

Maybe this is what the DBA list is aiming at.  Thanks for the background, Nik.

Patrick

The Pike are Superior in DBMM terms but these are not the Pike I was referring to - those are the Colunela either Fast or Ordinary depending upon which of the 1503 AD options you believe Phil is referring to for the battle.

Ah ... thanks, Tim.  Sometimes it is a relief not to be a DBA player!

[Andreas Johansson]

DBMM Pike Fast take lesser penalties than other pike for bad terrain, so not terrible there. They mostly have shorter weapons, indeed sometimes differ from troops classed as Spears solely in lacking shields.

[nikgaukroger]

The tercio doesn't appear until the 1530's - 1534 or 1535 is the date usually given.

Are you sure about that?  I thought they were starring at Pavia in 1525.

Positive 

1534 the three oldest tercios - Lombardy, Sicily and Naples - were formed, although I think 1535 is when the first surviving use of the term tercio comes from.

[Patrick Waterson]

Then I stand corrected, as does Wikipedia.