Rheged in Galloway

[Anton]

Yes, I think so too, the challenging thing is understanding how they got to that point.

[Imperial Dave]

I think Dark is on the right path and that polity splits originate along lowland/highland, Romanised vs semi (or non!) Romanised areas. The ethnicity that gets them there is almost an irrelevance

[aligern]

One area I would go with Guy Halsall in is that people have multiple identities and can choose which one suits them at a time. Identities are much easier to morph if the next one has the same language, religion and culture and history/ myth. 
I am minded of Mrs Merkel who reacted to a question about the Scots Independence referendum by asking Why? to us you are all the same...and she was right. Differences held to quite fiercely may look insignificant to a foreigner. Identity is likely to be held to because it confers some benefit. Laeti and Ripenses and foederati turn up to support Aetius against Attila. Why do they do this? Well it is very likely that they hold teir lands by Roman law and by a contract with a Roman state that really no longer exists, except that it is the reason you cannot be just pushed off your farm. Similarly people claim to be Goths in ninth century Septimania, most likely because it gives tgem rights and duties in the civitas even though they are now speaking dog latin, Catholic Christian, pretty fully intermarried with the locals.
Do we know if the 'Saxons' in Britain ever described themselves as such? Is West Saxon merely a matterof geography? Why did it arise in the first place. Interestingly Mercia is not a a descriptor of a region of Anglia or a people of Anglian heritage, mYbe it was a more inclusive project, consciously taking in all those little groups in the tribal hideage and such more significant sections such as Hwicce and Gewissae?

[Anton]

I'm more inclined to see it as more nuanced.  The lowland dynasties are under the greatest pressure but there seems plenty of evidence that they existed. They also should be the beneficaries of Dark's plebian religious revolt.  They certainly don't succumb quickly.

I wonder about the great Imperial estates and there impact upon the emerging polities.  Suddenly a lot of good land is up for grabs and what of those who worked it, were they free or unfree?  Slavery seems to have been an active reality.  Either way I'd expect the local grandees to grab it.  How did this impact on military potential?  Rich enough to hire soldiers and neglect native capability?

What of Penda? A Mercian pagan thoroughly allied to the British and amazingly if he ever had an Anglian name we don't know it.  Could it be Dark's revolution was less far reaching than he thought and some British high status pagans survived and prospered?

Ethnicity always counts because it determines status and status is closely guarded because of the rights attached to it. We seem to have situations where differing ethnicities co existed and then situations where to be of the wrong ethnicity meant huge disadvantage in life.

[Patrick Waterson]

Would there be any mileage in looking at anything to do with Papal references to this sceptred isle and seeing how it is referred to prior to Alfred?  Do we in fact have any such references?

[aligern]

Gregory the Great, Non Anglii sed Angeli.......though they may have been Angles!
R

[Imperial Dave]

claimed ethnicity is important, true ethnicity much less so. Look at modern Britain. Anyone who claims to be British is British regardless of where they were born. Within a generation (which is not very long in the scheme of things), immigrants' sons and daughters are British even if they still adhere to some aspects of their culture.

Therefore I would say claimed culture is more important than ethnicity per se

[Andreas Johansson]

Interestingly Mercia is not a a descriptor of a region of Anglia

Isn't it? The name means basically "borderland" - isn't that very likely the borderland of Anglia?

[Anton]

I'm wary of analogies, especially modern ones.

Let's say that King Ines Welsh Horsemen would have found considerable benefit in claiming to be West Saxons but the law made it clear they couldn't change their ethnicity at will.  They remained the King's Welsh Horsemen.

Likewise it's clear that Uruei Map Ulstan would have benefited hugely from claiming to be an ethnic Gododdin tribesman.  As the poet expressly tells us, he couldn't do that.

In both these cases we are dealing with high status men yet they could not transend the ethnic/legal barriers to a more desirable status.  Those lower down the social scale would have zero chance of changing their identity to bring advantage.

Yes, Mercia is the borderland - from the Germanic mark I think.

The Papal question is an interesting one Celestine seems to have encouraged the evangelisation of the two islands.  Later in this period we have Heather's Frankish model of Catholicism in place which might change perspectives.

[Duncan Head]

Gregory the Great, Non Anglii sed Angeli.......though they may have been Angles!

They were, they were Deirans:

Responsum est, quod Angli uocarentur. At ille: 'Bene,' inquit; 'nam et angelicam habent faciem, et tales angelorum in caelis decet esse coheredes. Quod habet nomen ipsa prouincia, de qua isti sunt adlati?' Responsum est, quod Deiri uocarentur idem prouinciales. At ille: 'Bene,' inquit, 'Deiri; de ira eruti, et ad misericordiam Christi uocati. Rex prouinciae illius quomodo appellatur?' Responsum est, quod Aelli diceretur. At ille adludens ad nomen ait: 'Alleluia, laudem Dei Creatoris illis in partibus oportet cantari.'

[aligern]

Well Andreas, from where the original Mercia is it could be the borderland of East Anglia, or of Deira, or of British States in the Midlands. We do tend to assume that it is a frontier set up by the English, but it might ge an area set up by the Britons against incursions , but using Germanic foederati.
If we take the tribal hidage as having meaning in terms of the relative positioning and scale of the states and statelets paying tribute ( most likely to Northumbria) then Mercia is a unit that is already facing a region that is settled .  Perhaps you t would be wrong to see Mercia as a frontier that sdvances westward, if westward was already settled? Maybe it was a frontier facing in a different direction?
R

[Imperial Dave]

I'm wary of analogies, especially modern ones.

Let's say that King Ines Welsh Horsemen would have found considerable benefit in claiming to be West Saxons but the law made it clear they couldn't change their ethnicity at will.  They remained the King's Welsh Horsemen.

Likewise it's clear that Uruei Map Ulstan would have benefited hugely from claiming to be an ethnic Gododdin tribesman.  As the poet expressly tells us, he couldn't do that.

In both these cases we are dealing with high status men yet they could not transend the ethnic/legal barriers to a more desirable status.  Those lower down the social scale would have zero chance of changing their identity to bring advantage.

Yes, Mercia is the borderland - from the Germanic mark I think.

The Papal question is an interesting one Celestine seems to have encouraged the evangelisation of the two islands.  Later in this period we have Heather's Frankish model of Catholicism in place which might change perspectives.

good points. I believe that by the 8th C this is pretty much on the money. I am just not sure in the 5th/6th especially it would be as great a pressure to be ethnically 'pure'. The great Germanic migrations of the period swept up great swaths of people and tribes and in some cases they got branded at certain ethnic groups. I see no essential difference immediately post Roman control. I think there is a middle ground

[Andreas Johansson]

Well Andreas, from where the original Mercia is it could be the borderland of East Anglia, or of Deira, or of British States in the Midlands. We do tend to assume that it is a frontier set up by the English, but it might ge an area set up by the Britons against incursions , but using Germanic foederati.

It could be many things, but unless one can show it can't be the borderland of Anglia, it's premature to say it isn't a descriptor of a region of Anglia.

[Anton]

There are some interesting indicators of how multi ethnic polities might work in Koch's treatment of Northumbria. 

Rhun of Rheged engaged in the mass baptism of Bernicean Angles including the royals and there was a marriage alliance.  Some high status Bernicean Angles clearly favoured, or felt the need for co-operation.  By Bede's time that is over and the British of Northumbria have been despoiled and any co operation written out of the record. Bede tells us how it was done with great relish.

I'm tempted to see this as a numbers game once critical mass is achieved new pressures come to the fore.  Koch makes the point that if the descendants of the high status British speaking Bernicean Angles who fought for Gododdin were still around they probably joined Ida.

[Imperial Dave]

absolutely and its an interesting timeline in the development of the Northumbrian state and entirely logical and plausable