Owain Glyndwr's infantry

[Erpingham]

I don't think there is a definitive answer to this one but it would be useful to know other's views.

I'm looking at fielding Glyndwr revolt Welsh as part of my ever-morphing HYW force.  As far as I can tell, the Welsh infantry was pretty much the same as English infantry by this point.  However, the spear seems to persist in Wales after most Englishmen had gone over to using the bill.  So, I will need spearmen.  My question is this- how do I represent them tactically?  Should they be of a ribauld/brigans type, able to operate in difficult terrain?  Or should they be more like Scots, more close order?  I recognise something of a wargamer dilemma here, in that real soldiers can alter tactics to suit circumstances but I'd be interested in a general view of best options.

[Patrick Waterson]

Which rules system(s) are you thinking of, Anthony?

[Erpingham]

Which rules system(s) are you thinking of, Anthony?

I'm still working away at my medieval Dux Bellorum game.  However, it's a pretty generic question.  Most rules do seem to have a more solid infantry category and a less solid one (e.g. Sp and Ax in DBx)

[Duncan Head]

How sure are you that there were spearmen anyway? Among the bits of Adam Chapman's Welsh Soldiers in the Later Middle Ages on Google Books is p.208 which suggests Welsh spear infantry in English service disappear in the later 14th century. Yet the "Welsh bill", which one  might think of as a spear replacement, doesn't seem to be mentioned until the 16th century - maybe 1450 to take the dates ascribed to some surviving examples, but post-Glyndwr anyway.

https://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=34611
http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/26186?sortBy=Relevance&deptids=4&ft=bill&offset=0&rpp=20&pos=1

Short answer is I haven't a clue :-) But DB* treats the earlier Welsh, up to the men in Edward III's earlier armies, as "loose" (Pk(F) or Ax(O), for bounding up hillsides) and - were I using a Welsh army under those rules - I wouldn't "close them up" after 1400 without more evidence than we seem to have.

[Erpingham]

I have read Adam Chapman and agree he doesn't resolve this issue, essentially because we lack evidence.  By the time English expeditionary armies drop Welsh spearmen in the mid-14th, we are looking at a troop type probably quite like Gascon infantry i.e. at the less solid end.  By the time we have detailed Tudor musters, we have mixed spears and bills (assuming spears as infantry and not cavalry spears - Welsh cavalry spears roughly equivalent to Border Horse serve a lot in Ireland at this time).  I'm tempted by Adam Chapman's view that English and Welsh infantry weren't particularly distinguishable by the end of the 14th century.  15th century English infantry mid-century have mainly bills but also axes, staves, glaives etc.  So, I'm thinking a mixed infantry armament of polearms and spears, perhaps one-to-one ratio with archers (this seems to fit English local forces, so on Chapman's thinking would fit Welsh). 

[aligern]

Didn't DB have a category of X that it put Picts into. Seemed a good idea to me that hilly terrain spearmen run around in loose oder over the tumpy terrain and then form dense clumps when faced by a close order or mounted threat. However, they are not particularly aggressive when they form  close. This to me fitted with the Welsh in the 13th century who were pretty loose in Scotland or say Lincloln, whereas at Orewin Bridge they clump up close against English knights.
I would suggest that highland Welsh are always going to less heavily equipped than lowland farmboys and operate in looser order, moving fasrer,  up until they need to clump. That is a bit analogous to the Swiss. Question is whether Welsh firmed close are as good at aggressive action as lowland infantry.
R

[Patrick Waterson]

Which rules system(s) are you thinking of, Anthony?

I'm still working away at my medieval Dux Bellorum game.  However, it's a pretty generic question.  Most rules do seem to have a more solid infantry category and a less solid one (e.g. Sp and Ax in DBx)

What was on my mind is whether the fighting style concerned would involve rapid movement but reassembly into solid formations before combat or rushing to the field of glory and attempting to make an impact in a loose-ish formation.  They might conceivably do either depending upon the terrain in which they are fighting.  So we can examine the exiguous examples of battlefield behaviour from the revolt and see if these have any pointers.

At Bryn Glas, Glendower (or, more accurately, his commander Rhys Gethin) ambushed and destroyed Mortimer's army, seemingly suggesting the loose formation rush; at the relief of Grosmont and again at Pwll Melyn (both in AD 1405) Welsh armies were smashed in open combat, again apparently favouring the loose formation interpretation.

The above leads me to favour the loose formation interpretation, which, together with Duncan's observations above, seems to be going in one particular direction.  There is of course the caveat that the customary English superiority in knights might have made a difference even if the Welsh melee troops fought in close formation, but at this juncture knights tended to be less significant than archers and billmen (cf. Shrewsbury, AD 1403, where despite the battle being decided by an 'own goal' knightly charge - Percy took an arrow and was killed - it had been largely shaped by the activities of the archers).

So, I'm thinking a mixed infantry armament of polearms and spears, perhaps one-to-one ratio with archers (this seems to fit English local forces, so on Chapman's thinking would fit Welsh). 

Seems quite reasonable, and while we might assume that most of the defecting Welsh soldiers were archers, Glendower's Welsh recruits might be predominantly men with spears and bills, which would tend to balance the ratio.

[Erpingham]

At Bryn Glas, Glendower (or, more accurately, his commander Rhys Gethin) ambushed and destroyed Mortimer's army, seemingly suggesting the loose formation rush; at the relief of Grosmont and again at Pwll Melyn (both in AD 1405) Welsh armies were smashed in open combat, again apparently favouring the loose formation interpretation.

The trouble with all of these is a lack of detail about them.  At Bryn Glas (aka Pilleth) we know the Welsh took a stand on a hill by the church but how it panned out from there is less clear (to me certainly).  Some reconstructions suggest the English attacked uphill.  Grosmont was a siege relief and we don't know whether it was a formal battle or not.  Pwll Melyn I don't know in any detail but I don't remember a lot of detail in any of the battles.  Ambushes and surprise attacks and running fights seem to have been quite common though.

[Patrick Waterson]

The lack of detail is indeed frustrating: my best guess (and it is frankly just that) is that the overall pattern of fighting seems to suit 'loose' Welsh infantry but, as Roy has suggested, perhaps with the ability to 'tighten up' if holding a hilltop or similar.

[Andreas Johansson]

Didn't DB have a category of X that it put Picts into. Seemed a good idea to me that hilly terrain spearmen run around in loose oder over the tumpy terrain and then form dense clumps when faced by a close order or mounted threat.

That's more-or-less the definition of DBM Auxilia (X) and of DBMM Pikes (F), which is indeed what the bulk of a Pictish army is classified as.

[Erpingham]

Didn't DB have a category of X that it put Picts into. Seemed a good idea to me that hilly terrain spearmen run around in loose oder over the tumpy terrain and then form dense clumps when faced by a close order or mounted threat.

That's more-or-less the definition of DBM Auxilia (X) and of DBMM Pikes (F), which is indeed what the bulk of a Pictish army is classified as.

And presumably later Welsh also?

Are the different formations represented in any way e.g. through different basic factors or tactical bonuses?

[Andreas Johansson]

Didn't DB have a category of X that it put Picts into. Seemed a good idea to me that hilly terrain spearmen run around in loose oder over the tumpy terrain and then form dense clumps when faced by a close order or mounted threat.

That's more-or-less the definition of DBM Auxilia (X) and of DBMM Pikes (F), which is indeed what the bulk of a Pictish army is classified as.

And presumably later Welsh also?

North Welsh spearmen are Pk (F) from 1150 in the DBMM list (before that Warband (F)).

Are the different formations represented in any way e.g. through different basic factors or tactical bonuses?

Only in that rear support is only allowed in good or rough going, not in difficult. They do also suffer lesser terrain penalties than other Pikes.

[Erpingham]

North Welsh spearmen are Pk (F) from 1150 in the DBMM list (before that Warband (F)).

Are other Welsh spearmen treated differently?  I wonder if this reflects the old idea that spearmen came from the North and archers from the South, which Chapman and Sean Davies reject?

[aligern]

Quite so, How would they get all those archers in Chester if the nearby Welsh were pokey stick men!
R

[Andreas Johansson]

North Welsh spearmen are Pk (F) from 1150 in the DBMM list (before that Warband (F)).

Are other Welsh spearmen treated differently?  I wonder if this reflects the old idea that spearmen came from the North and archers from the South, which Chapman and Sean Davies reject?

It does. From the 12th century, the southerners are mostly archers, and what spearmen they have are Ax (O), apparently on the supposition they're less inclined to bunch up to resist cavalry (and no longer aggressive enough to be classed as Warband).