Carthaginian cavalry

[RichT]

Are we reasonably happy with sunōridas in Diodorus XVI.67 and 77 designating Numidian horse-pairs?

Not especially here either - from a brief look at examples, συνωρίς (sunoris) seems always at least associated with chariots, if not simply 'two horse chariot', with plenty of examples.

A nice case here:

Dionysius of Halicarnassus 7.73:
"It now remains for me to give a brief account of the games which the Romans performed after the procession. The first was a race of four-horse chariots [tethrippon], two-horse chariots [sunoridon], and of unyoked horses [azeukton], as has been the custom among the Greeks, both anciently at Olympia and down to the present.  In the chariot races two very ancient customs continue to be observed by the Romans down to my time in the same manner as they were first instituted. The first relates to the chariots drawn by three horses [tripola ton harmaton], a custom now fallen into disuse among the Greeks, though it was an ancient institution of heroic times which Homer represents the Greeks as using in battle. For running beside two horses yoked together [hippois ezeugmenois] in the same manner as in the case of a two-horse chariot [zeugnutai sunoris] was a third horse attached by a trace; this trace-horse the ancients called parêoros or "outrunner," because he was "hitched beside" and not yoked to the others."

[Duncan Head]

There is also the papyrus that the Perseus version of Diod. 16.67 footnotes to from sunoridas/"spare teams of horses":

The charioteer receipts of P. Petrie, 2.25, dated in the 21st year of Ptolemy Philadelphus (265/4 B.C.), show that it was customary for chariots to be accompanied by spare horses, trained to work in pairs.

This raises a lot of questions (Ptolemaic charioteers? Are these military, or just racers, or what?) and Diodorus' numbers are very high for spares (but is the answer just that the numbers are wrong?) but does give some suport to the chariot link.

[Patrick Waterson]

There is also the papyrus that the Perseus version of Diod. 16.67 footnotes to from sunoridas/"spare teams of horses":

The charioteer receipts of P. Petrie, 2.25, dated in the 21st year of Ptolemy Philadelphus (265/4 B.C.), show that it was customary for chariots to be accompanied by spare horses, trained to work in pairs.

This raises a lot of questions (Ptolemaic charioteers? Are these military, or just racers, or what?) and Diodorus' numbers are very high for spares (but is the answer just that the numbers are wrong?) but does give some support to the chariot link.

Diodorus uses sunōridas four times in the extant portion of his work: we have seen XVI.67 and XVI.77; Richard has covered the XIII.75 reference, albeit I am dubious about the translation of sunōridas as 'chariots' rather than 'pairs', but in XIII.82 the mention seems to be pairs of white horses apart from or other than chariots if I read the khōris in XIII.82.7 correctly (a second opinion would be appreciated).

If the Acragas procession in Diodorus XIII.82 has chariots and separate pairs of horses as opposed to pairs of horses pulling chariots, it may indicate a Hellenic parade tradition without the horse pairs necessarily being associated with the chariots.  It does raise the question of whether such horse pairs would be useful for anything except looking pretty in a parade or a race, but Tarentines and Numidians found tactical uses for a pair of horses.

One wonders if Caesar's (or Hirtius') African War account of the Thapsus campaign is touching upon the two-horse configuration when he distinguished 'bridled' (frenati) Numidian cavalry from 'unbridled' sine freni).  His opponents (in African War 59 and 61) put the 'bridled' cavalry in the line of battle and the 'unbridled' were detached to operate with swarms of Numidian light infantry.  This may of course just distinguish between cavalry with discipline (and bridles) but one is left wondering if he meant cavalry accustomed to riding one horse as opposed to switching between two.

Either way, we are left with the essential question: if Diodorus was aware of the Numidian proclivity for single riders using paired horses, how would he have described them?

[Duncan Head]

One wonders if Caesar's (or Hirtius') African War account of the Thapsus campaign is touching upon the two-horse configuration when he distinguished 'bridled' (frenati) Numidian cavalry from 'unbridled' sine freni).  His opponents (in African War 59 and 61) put the 'bridled' cavalry in the line of battle and the 'unbridled' were detached to operate with swarms of Numidian light infantry.  This may of course just distinguish between cavalry with discipline (and bridles) but one is left wondering if he meant cavalry accustomed to riding one horse as opposed to switching between two.

The frenati are not necessarily Numidian. I've always thought it obvious that phrase is to distinguish traditional Numidian light cavalry, famous for not using proper bridles but just a rope round the jaw, from "conventional" Italian or Gallic or whatever cavalry such as Scipio's Roman forces are likely to have included, or indeed Juba's own Gallic and Spanish bodyguard.

[Jim Webster]

Not sure this helps or not 

Back to Dio Sic Bk 19, 106
In Sicily,where Agathocles was constantly increasing in power and collecting stronger forces, the Carthaginians, since they heard that the dynast was organizing the cities of the island for his own ends and that with his armed forces he surpassed their own soldiers, decided to wage the war with more energy.  Accordingly they at once made ready one hundred and thirty triremes, chose as general Hamilcar, one of their most distinguished men, gave him two thousand citizen soldiers among whom were many of the nobles, ten thousand men from Libya, a thousand mercenaries and two hundred zeugippae from Etruria, a thousand Baliaric slingers, and also a large sum of money and the proper provision of missiles, food, and the other things necessary for war

The footnote for Zeugippae states

If the text is sound, we must suppose the otherwise unknown zeugippae to be horsemen who had each an extra horse, like the ἄμφιπποι of chap. 29.2; but perhaps we should read ζευγίτας, heavy armed infantry.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/19F*.html

One thing that strikes me is that 200 elite cavalry is worth having, but 200 heavy infantry seems a trifle limited

Jim

[Duncan Head]

Again, a stray reference with little context. Do we believe in mercenary Etruscan two-horse-men when we've no evidence of the type existing in Etruria? And even if the interpretation of these guys is correct, it's just one more example of a two-horse phenomenon we already know to exist; it doesn't really help us with the sunoridas.

[RichT]

I am dubious about the translation of sunoridas as 'chariots' rather than 'pairs', but in XIII.82 the mention seems to be pairs of white horses apart from or other than chariots if I read the khoris in XIII.82.7 correctly (a second opinion would be appreciated).

My second opinion is you are wrong about this (and the Loeb translator is right). Literal translation: "he was led into the city in a chariot; also in the procession, aside from the others, were three hundred pairs of white horses, all of the Akragantians". So yes you are right that 'sunorides' is 'pairs', not explicitly 'chariots', but then from other examples 'pairs' means 'chariots'.

In the case of the Numidians, granted Diod might have used 'pairs' to describe a set of two riding horses; but it's not how the word is usually used. He could have said 'with two horses', for example.

[Swampster]

There is also the papyrus that the Perseus version of Diod. 16.67 footnotes to from sunoridas/"spare teams of horses":

The charioteer receipts of P. Petrie, 2.25, dated in the 21st year of Ptolemy Philadelphus (265/4 B.C.), show that it was customary for chariots to be accompanied by spare horses, trained to work in pairs.

This raises a lot of questions (Ptolemaic charioteers? Are these military, or just racers, or what?) and Diodorus' numbers are very high for spares (but is the answer just that the numbers are wrong?) but does give some suport to the chariot link.

The papyrus in question seems to be here https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=TZxsAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA71-IA1&lpg=PA71-IA1&dq=charioteer+Petrie+papyrus&source=bl&ots=dfGsj-Dgpn&sig=DzPS2hBEHhmsixwDRWoZnWdZDwQ&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=charioteer%20Petrie%20papyrus&f=false though this put it in the 21st year of a different Ptolemy.
The commentary seems to assume that they are carts rather than chariots.

[Patrick Waterson]

Good detective work Peter, although the fragment seems to refer to five 5-horse and three 3-horse chariots, but no spare two-horse accompanying teams.

I have a feeling it may sadly be a different fragment to the one referred to, as otherwise the stated content would require a huge leap of imagination on the part of the Perseus note-maker.

I am dubious about the translation of sunoridas as 'chariots' rather than 'pairs', but in XIII.82 the mention seems to be pairs of white horses apart from or other than chariots if I read the khoris in XIII.82.7 correctly (a second opinion would be appreciated).

My second opinion is you are wrong about this (and the Loeb translator is right). Literal translation: "he was led into the city in a chariot; also in the procession, aside from the others, were three hundred pairs of white horses, all of the Akragantians". So yes you are right that 'sunorides' is 'pairs', not explicitly 'chariots', but then from other examples 'pairs' means 'chariots'.

OK, thanks, Richard.  I am not wholly sure what you mean by 'pairs means chariots'; my impression was that this is a translator's assumption rather than a recognised meaning.  The other point that arises is that if sunōridas actually does mean 'chariots' then it will have a hard time also meaning spare pairs of horses.

In the case of the Numidians, granted Diod might have used 'pairs' to describe a set of two riding horses; but it's not how the word is usually used. He could have said 'with two horses', for example.

Perhaps amphippoi or even, given that for change-in-mid-action they need to be taken around together, zeugippae.

Again, a stray reference with little context. Do we believe in mercenary Etruscan two-horse-men when we've no evidence of the type existing in Etruria? And even if the interpretation of these guys is correct, it's just one more example of a two-horse phenomenon we already know to exist; it doesn't really help us with the sunoridas.

It might at least serve to dissociate two-horse combinations from chariots - unless we think the Etruscans were still using chariots in Agathocles' time.

[Swampster]

Good detective work Peter, although the fragment seems to refer to five 5-horse and three 3-horse chariots, but no spare two-horse accompanying teams.

I have a feeling it may sadly be a different fragment to the one referred to, as otherwise the stated content would require a huge leap of imagination on the part of the Perseus note-maker.

I've seen bigger leaps
There are several big coincidences if it is the wrong text. This group of texts is numbered 25 in vol 2 of Petrie and is about 'charioteers'. The horses are in 5s or 3s which could well be taken to be 4 plus spare or 2 plus spare. The regnal year is the same.
The mismatches are that there is no reference to horses in pairs and the king is different.  I suspect the note-maker may have nodded.

[Patrick Waterson]

Good detective work Peter, although the fragment seems to refer to five 5-horse and three 3-horse chariots, but no spare two-horse accompanying teams.

I have a feeling it may sadly be a different fragment to the one referred to, as otherwise the stated content would require a huge leap of imagination on the part of the Perseus note-maker.

I've seen bigger leaps
There are several big coincidences if it is the wrong text. This group of texts is numbered 25 in vol 2 of Petrie and is about 'charioteers'. The horses are in 5s or 3s which could well be taken to be 4 plus spare or 2 plus spare. The regnal year is the same.
The mismatches are that there is no reference to horses in pairs and the king is different.  I suspect the note-maker may have nodded.

The absence of any other text with content closer to that described by the Perseus note-maker is also noteworthy.  On balance, I think you have to be right (reference fits, content broadly fits) and the note-maker was having an off day.  So - this would leave us with no 'customary' trained horse-pairs accompanying chariots, and hence a wider scope of potential meanings for sunōridas; I gather from lexicon perusal that the underlying meaning is a pair or couple of something, preferably something with a rideable back and four feet.

[Duncan Head]

Good detective work Peter, although the fragment seems to refer to five 5-horse and three 3-horse chariots, but no spare two-horse accompanying teams.

Look at the Greek text of the papyrus at the top of the page, and on line 7 you will see the word sunoridas! Lines 6-7 are surely something like:

.. for (the) vehicles (harmata) that accompanied him, five of five horses, and (the) sunoridas, three of three horses ...

Which suggests that the Perseus note is correct about the wagons being accompanied by additional teams, but not "trained to work in pairs".. And suggests that sunoridas doesn't always mean "pairs".

[Jim Webster]

given that agricultural terms, technically in the same language, can mean slightly different things in different English speaking countries today, I have no problem with sunoridas meaning something a little different to a Greek speaking clerk in Egypt, a Greek historian in Sicily and a Greek in Greece, especially if you're talking about people writing a century or more apart.

[RichT]

I am not wholly sure what you mean by 'pairs means chariots'; my impression was that this is a translator's assumption rather than a recognised meaning.

I mean that in the vast majority of cases, while sunoris can mean just 'a pair', it is clear from the context that it means 'a pair of horses with chariot'. The most obvious cases are from Pausanias in his descriptions of the Olympic events eg

Paus 5.8 "The race for two full-grown horses, was instituted at the ninety-third Festival, and the winner was Evagoras of Elis. At the ninety-ninth Festival they resolved to hold contests for chariots drawn by foals, and Sybariades of Lacedaemon won the garland with his chariot and foals.  Afterwards they added races for chariots and pairs of foals, and for single foals with rider. It is said that the victors proclaimed were: for the chariot and pair, Belistiche, a woman from the seaboard of Macedonia; for the ridden race, Tlepolemus of Lycia."

Most of the 'chariots' are supplied by the translator, the Greek being just 'sunoris' (of foals or adults), but the translation isn't in doubt, unless a whole new class of Olympic multi-horse-riding events is to be discovered.

Polybius on the Daphne parade is an interesting comparison:

Pol. 31.3 (30.25) "And behind them came a hundred six-horsed, and forty four-horsed chariots; a chariot drawn by four elephants and another by two;"

More literally: "After these were 100 six-horse and 40 four-horse, then an of-elephants chariot and pair  [elephanton harma kai sunoris]"

In this case both Paton and Shuckburgh translate it with two elephant chariots, a four, presumably from harma, and a two, from sunoris - I would read it as a single chariot and pair of elephants - but it matters little. Note that 'six-horse' and 'four-horse' are assumed to be chariots (what else could they be?).

This sort of usage isn't uncommon - think of a three-oar as a ship with three banks of oars (whatever that might mean!). Or in English the closest I can think of is 'chaise and four' - admittedly the chaise is mentioned, but then there are more different types of carriage than there are of chariots.

[Andreas Johansson]

This sort of usage isn't uncommon - think of a three-oar as a ship with three banks of oars (whatever that might mean!). Or in English the closest I can think of is 'chaise and four' - admittedly the chaise is mentioned, but then there are more different types of carriage than there are of chariots.

For a similar English usage, one might think of e.g. "six-pounder" and "twelve-pounder" for different kinds of guns.