11C Scots

[Andreas Johansson]

Andreas, I was thinking of this Donnington Originals Range

http://shop.ancient-modern.co.uk/medieval-feudal-and-cruisades-56-c.asp

Ah, thanks.

[Erpingham]

Well, it certainly seems to speak of a single weapon raised as a standard, but the verb is singular whereas the English translation is plural "they advance", so something funny is going on.

Here is the full quote, which may clarify

Agilem, nudam, calvitie multa notabilem, sinistrum latus munientem cultellis, armatis quibuslibet formidandis, jaculis jaciendis et dirigendis in longinquum manum habentem aptissimam, lanceam longam cum ad bellum progreditur erigentem pro signum

[Andreas Johansson]

Here is the full quote, which may clarify

Agilem, nudam, calvitie multa notabilem, sinistrum latus munientem cultellis, armatis quibuslibet formidandis, jaculis jaciendis et dirigendis in longinquum manum habentem aptissimam, lanceam longam cum ad bellum progreditur erigentem pro signum

Ah. The entire passage is in the singular, presumably describing the archetypical Galwegian warrior. Then presumably every individual has a long lancea to brandish after all (and signum is "sign", of warlike intent I guess, rather than "standard").

A good question is what the 12C writer would understand by lancea. In classical usage it's a javelin, and a long one is still not very long as spears go; but as ModEng "lance" shows, the word eventually got applied to longer weapons not intended for throwing.

Scots Normans would indubitably be armoured, and presumably also elite troops ("thegns" in terms of the DBMM list), at least from the ex-Angle southeast. The mass of spearmen seem to've remained poorly armoured through-out the Middle Ages, so presumably little if any armour in the 11C? Helmets, maybe?

[Andreas Johansson]

Trousers - did they wear them?

Relatedly, did Islesmen wear them? I'd gotten the idea that they quickly adopted Irish-style dress, but at least bits of the Internet think they remained indistinguishable from stay-at-home Scandinavians.

[Erpingham]

A good question is what the 12C writer would understand by lancea.

A quick check in Oman on the battle of the Standard is that the Scots spears discussed above are called lancea, so a long, if slightly weedy, weapon could be so described.  Oman (who usually quotes the original of his translations) records that long Flemish infantry spears at Steppes (1212) were called lancea.  So the word may already have been general in meaning by this stage and capable of being applied tolong weapons, not just to lighter throwable ones.

[Mick Hession]

Trousers - did they wear them?

Relatedly, did Islesmen wear them? I'd gotten the idea that they quickly adopted Irish-style dress, but at least bits of the Internet think they remained indistinguishable from stay-at-home Scandinavians.

Later depictions (after Somerled's revolt separated the Isles from Man) invariably show Islemen as bare-legged but that was probably the case earlier too, as Magnus Barelegs got his nickname because his favoured attire reflected his upbringing in the Isles. Irish, or at least Hiberno-Norse, influence really dates from the latter half of the 11th century when Man was ruled by branches of the ruling dynasty of Dublin so if you're building an army from that period a mix of bare-legged and trousered individuals would be ok.

Cheers
Mick         

[Andreas Johansson]

Later depictions (after Somerled's revolt separated the Isles from Man) invariably show Islemen as bare-legged but that was probably the case earlier too, as Magnus Barelegs got his nickname because his favoured attire reflected his upbringing in the Isles. Irish, or at least Hiberno-Norse, influence really dates from the latter half of the 11th century when Man was ruled by branches of the ruling dynasty of Dublin so if you're building an army from that period a mix of bare-legged and trousered individuals would be ok.

Thanks. The DBMM list begins in 1050, so conventional Viking figures might be OK for the very start of the list but they should quickly become more Irish-ish.

[Martin Smith]

Quick note:- TSS have recently released a range of 'feudal Scots' which may be useful (?).

Martin

[Swampster]

Quick note:- TSS have recently released a range of 'feudal Scots' which may be useful (?).

Martin

I would refer the honourable gentleman to the reply #1

[Martin Smith]

Oooops 😳

[Imperial Dave]

but worth mentioning again.....as they are a decent set of figures 

[Andreas Johansson]

While looking for Macbethian stuff, I came across a book The Picts and the Scots at War by Nick Aitchison. Anyone familiar with book or author?

Also potentially interesting seems Sally M. Foster's Picts, Gaels, and Scots. Anyone read it?

[Imperial Dave]

no to either alas but by the looks of the Amazon reviews both may be worth a punt although both have been labelled by some as 'dry'. For me this is something that history books in general get labelled as so not necessarily a reason not to get!

[Andreas Johansson]

Yeah - when it comes to non-fiction I tend to take "dry" as a commendation. Sure, there are books too dry for my tastes, but my tastes are clearly more xerophilic than most people who write Amazon reviews'.

[Imperial Dave]

absolutely....I think I would be more worried if I read a review of a history book that said 'swashbuckling' or 'gripping'