Parthian Army

[Jim Webster]

I wouldn't get knotted up about references to hoplites as it's just 'Heavy Infantry'.

In ancient Greek, yes, but Syvänne is a modern author writing "Greek style hoplites".  Either he means guys with argive shield, long spear, and an aggressive attitude; or he's expressing himself quite perversely.

Or do we have a 'pike man' problem here, where some modern historians tend to use sloppy translations for details wargamers regard as important?

[Andreas Johansson]

Or do we have a 'pike man' problem here, where some modern historians tend to use sloppy translations for details wargamers regard as important?

I wouldn't think so - Syvänne is sufficiently interested in wargamerish detail to write an article about the proportion of cataphracts in Parthian armies, after all, and "Greek style hoplites" isn't the sort of sloppy translation you might get out of a general dictionary. It sounds like the sort of phrase you'd use if you knew hoplitai is more general and wanted to make clear you mean hoplites as commonly understood in modern military history.

[Jim Webster]

Or do we have a 'pike man' problem here, where some modern historians tend to use sloppy translations for details wargamers regard as important?

I wouldn't think so - Syvänne is sufficiently interested in wargamerish detail to write an article about the proportion of cataphracts in Parthian armies, after all, and "Greek style hoplites" isn't the sort of sloppy translation you might get out of a general dictionary. It sounds like the sort of phrase you'd use if you knew hoplitai is more general and wanted to make clear you mean hoplites as commonly understood in modern military history.

yes, I see what you mean
It does raise the old question, when did the Hoplite 'proper' finally fade away

[Patrick Waterson]

I wouldn't get knotted up about references to hoplites as it's just 'Heavy Infantry'. Unless you believe that the Parthians had no access to Heavy Infantry in any of their realm. Given there were remnant 'Greek' cities, it's certainly not impossible these supplied infantry contingents.

And Cassius Dio would not consider these to be 'Parthians'.  How often and how extensively the Parthians might use them and with what effect is another question, unless they had learned not to mistreat them as they did the captured troops of Antiochus Sidetes (who repaid this hospitality by changing sides).

It does raise the old question, when did the Hoplite 'proper' finally fade away

Definitely by the time Greek authors were using 'hoplites' to mean any sort of heavy infantry, even Roman.  From our sources, the last clear and explicit mention (unless I have missed something) of actual dora-and-aspis traditional Greek hoplites seems to be when Cleomenes III converted the Spartans to pikemen prior to Sellasia in 222 BC.

[Jim Webster]

It does raise the old question, when did the Hoplite 'proper' finally fade away

Definitely by the time Greek authors were using 'hoplites' to mean any sort of heavy infantry, even Roman.  From our sources, the last clear and explicit mention (unless I have missed something) of actual dora-and-aspis traditional Greek hoplites seems to be when Cleomenes III converted the Spartans to pikemen prior to Sellasia in 222 BC.

I think you're right for mainland Greece, but I do wonder about places like Sicily, Massilia, and even the Black Sea cities. Those in the hurly burly of Hellenistic warfare, Syria, Greece, Asia Minor I can see changing pretty damned quick but on the 'fringes' I do wonder

[Andreas Johansson]

I think you're right for mainland Greece, but I do wonder about places like Sicily, Massilia, and even the Black Sea cities. Those in the hurly burly of Hellenistic warfare, Syria, Greece, Asia Minor I can see changing pretty damned quick but on the 'fringes' I do wonder

There was a brief discussion early last year about the Western Greeks in the 3rd and 2nd centuries BC. The basic takeaway is that we just don't know what sort of heavy infantry they fielded.

But the use of hoplitai to mean any heavy infantry surely predates the eclipse of the traditional Greek hoplite: Xenophon in the Cyropaedia uses it of Egyptian and Persian infantry.

[Patrick Waterson]

But the use of hoplitai to mean any heavy infantry surely predates the eclipse of the traditional Greek hoplite: Xenophon in the Cyropaedia uses it of Egyptian and Persian infantry.

Yes, you are right there.  So that usage is really no clue at all.

Those in the hurly burly of Hellenistic warfare, Syria, Greece, Asia Minor I can see changing pretty damned quick but on the 'fringes' I do wonder

In the WRG 6th army lists, Bactrian mercenary hoplites appeared as a guard unit in Indian armies of 220 BC - AD 50.  In the errata Phil B changed this to 'Bactrian mercenary guardsmen' without changing the troop type (heavy infantry, long thrusting spear, shield).  Does anyone know what he was using as the basis for this?

[Andreas Johansson]

In the WRG 6th army lists, Bactrian mercenary hoplites appeared as a guard unit in Indian armies of 220 BC - AD 50.  In the errata Phil B changed this to 'Bactrian mercenary guardsmen' without changing the troop type (heavy infantry, long thrusting spear, shield).  Does anyone know what he was using as the basis for this?

No idea, but they're still there in the DBMM lists (now called "Bactrian Greek mercenary guardsmen"), so evidently no-one's talked him out of them!

[Duncan Head]

I think that the "Bactrian Greek" guardsmen are based on some references to "Yavana", that is to say Greek, guardsmen in Tamil and possibly other Indian literary sources. References to "Roman" guardsmen in modern sources I suspect come from some of the same sources, because I am not sure that they can be dated to within a couple of centuries, and a "Greek" soldier somewhen in C1 BC - C1 AD could have been trekking south from the last Graeco-Bactrian kingdoms or crossing the Indian Ocean from Roman Egypt.

Jim once quoted a Tamil description of them as "Yavana guards whose stern looks strike terror into every beholder, wear long and loose clothes that are fastened at the waist by means of belts".

In the DBMM lists the "Greeks" can either be Reg Sp(O) or Reg Ax(S), and of course the latter could be either Hellenistic thureophoroi or Roman auxilia. And that's basically because we know next to nothing about them.

[Patrick Waterson]

Very good; thanks, Duncan (sorry about the delayed response - my router died, and I do not mean on the tabletop!).