Greek Armies

[Patrick Waterson]

From the Mycenaean period to 146 BC, when the Romans stopped play.

[Mark]

Blimey that's a long period. * = SoA discount

For Mycenaean 28mm:
Foundry (Mycenaean

For Classical 28mm
Foundry: "Age of the Greeks" (Steve Saleh sculpts), Macedonians (ditto I think)
* Warlord (Immortal plastics and metal, now being replaced, for the Classical period)
Scarab Miniatures
* Gorgon Studios (Spartans, again by Steve Saleh)
* 1st Corps
Vendel/Sgt Major

For Macedonian/Successor
Foundry (Steve Saleh again) Macedonian
* Warlord Macedonian (I assume by Bob Naismith but I could be wrong, for Macedonian)
* GB (late Successor, Steve Saleh sculpts)
* 1st Corps
Vendel/Sgt Major

[dwkay57]

Yes it does seem a long period. My general background reading tends to suggest that even during the "classical" period of the city states from say Marathon through to Alexander individual armies changed considerably. Are there any more specific army lists about for individual cities? I'm trying to build up a collection of 6mm Greeks and whilst not trying to be a historical "rivet counter", I'd like to have a reasonable level of accuracy whilst emphasising the difference.

[Patrick Waterson]

Let us subdivide broadly along the following lines:

1) Mycenaean to Geometric - the chariot-and-foot period.

2) Geometric to Classical - working out the hoplite system under various tyrants.

3) Classical I: Pisistratus to Pericles - the metal-armoured hoplite and his trials and triumphs against the Achaemenids.

4) Classical II: Peloponnesian War to Pelopidas - the linothorax hoplite and the rise of the peltast.

5) Classical III: Iphicrates to Cleomenes (III) - the mercenary and epilektoi era and the time of the thureophoroi.

6) Classical IV: Sellasia to Corinth - the pike-armed armies.

Would anyone like to open with a useful source quote or two?

[Duncan Head]

Let us subdivide broadly along the following lines:

1) Mycenaean to Geometric - the chariot-and-foot period.
2) Geometric to Classical - working out the hoplite system under various tyrants.
3) Classical I: Pisistratus to Pericles - the metal-armoured hoplite and his trials and triumphs against the Achaemenids.
4) Classical II: Peloponnesian War to Pelopidas - the linothorax hoplite and the rise of the peltast.
5) Classical III: Iphicrates to Cleomenes (III) - the mercenary and epilektoi era and the time of the thureophoroi.
6) Classical IV: Sellasia to Corinth - the pike-armed armies.

Would anyone like to open with a useful source quote or two?

No, we'll quibble over your periods instead 

That leaves me uncertain whether the Geometric era itself is in period 1 or 2.
Period 3, more or less, is the Archaic era - "Classical" surely starts after the Persian Wars.
I wouldn't use "linothorax" in a period description, since there is debate over whether the non-metal cuirasses are linen or leather, or both; and in any case, when linen cuirasses are mentioned in this period, the Homeric term linothorax is not used.
5,6 - you can't split the Hellenistic period into thureophoroi first and pikes later because they overlap - the Athenians are using thyreoi in 2nd-century Games when Achaians and Boiotians have given them up.

I would be old-fashioned and subdivide into:

Mycenaean
Dark Age
Geometric, say 900-750
Archaic to 479
Early Classical - to the Peloponnesian War
Late Classical (4th century, basically)
Hellenistic, say 280-146
Roman subjects, post-146

[Tim]

Duncan

Thank you for that.  Certainly for the earlier periods (pre-479 BC) this more matches my (very incomplete) understanding.  It also fits better with the pictorial representations we have IMnvHO).

[Patrick Waterson]

Good I was hoping Duncan would dive in.

Now, David, if you have any specific questions about your Greek area(s) of interest, do air them while Duncan is still checking this thread. 

[dwkay57]

Oh dear have I started something?

I'm looking at the Classical II and III principally although I think I've strayed into the Classical I Epoch (a term they've started using in the model railway fraternity to classify models to their period of use and paint schemes).

I've created an Athenian army based largely on the ten tribes militia hoplite, a Theban army with a sacred band and deeper hoplite formations and a Spartan one based around some elite hoplites.
Questions are really around:
1) What or who were the Theban and Spartan allies that the general texts seem to refer?
2) What did a Thessalian army of this period contain. My current "plans" have about 3,000 cavalry, 2,000 peltasts and about 1,200 hoplites but this is likely to wrong.
Any guidance welcome. Thanks.

David

[Patrick Waterson]

Not to worry: I was conceptualising by systems while Duncan was more accurately delineating chronology (apart from the Mycenaean and Geometric periods - the 'Dark Age' is an artefact of erroneous Egyptian chronology, but that is another discussion entirely  ).

I get the impression your armies are poised to refight campaigns in the 4th century BC, specifically 395-361 (Agesilaus' campaigns against Thebes and Epaminondas' against Sparta) with possible Peloponnesian War employment (Athens and Sparta never met in full and open battle during the war, though the Athenians fought the Thebans at Delium in 424 BC and during the mid-war truce (424-413 BC) joined the Argives to fight the Spartans at First Mantinea in 418 BC).

Spartan allies were other Peloponnesian city-states, e.g. Corinth, Sicyon, Elis, Tegea (trawling through Thucydides Book V gives a useful list).  Theban allies were the Boeotian city-states (apart from Plataea, which sided with Athens).

Xenophon's Hellenica is our main source for a Thessalian army under Jason of Pherae: I quote the relevant extracts.

This man, after concluding a truce with my city, had a meeting with me and spoke as follows: `Polydamas, that I could bring over your city, Pharsalus, even against its will, you may conclude from the following facts. You know,' he said, `that I have as allies the greater number and the largest of the cities of Thessaly; and I subdued them when you were with them in the field against me. Furthermore, you are aware that I have men of other states as mercenaries to the number of six thousand, with whom, as I think, no city could easily contend. As for numbers,' he said, `of course as great a force might march out of some other city also; but armies made up of citizens include men who are already advanced in years and others who have not yet come to their prime. Furthermore, in every city very few men train their bodies, but among my mercenaries no one serves unless he is able to endure as severe toils as I myself.'  - Xenophon Hellenica VI.1.4-5

'Well, then, this is plain to us, that if Pharsalus and the cities which are dependent upon you should be added to my power, I could easily become Tagus of all the Thessalians; and, further, that whenever Thessaly is under a Tagus, her horsemen amount to six thousand and more than ten thousand men become hoplites.' - idem VI.1.8

'Furthermore, the Boeotians and all the others who are at war with the Lacedaemonians are my allies, and they are ready to be my followers, too, if only I free them from the Lacedaemonians.' - idem VI.1.10

When, accordingly, they had exchanged pledges with one another, the Pharsalians at once observed peace, and Jason was speedily established by common consent as Tagus of the Thessalians. Having become Tagus, he assessed the contingents of cavalry and hoplites that the cities were to furnish, according to the ability of each. And the result was that he had more than eight thousand horsemen, including the allies, his hoplites were reckoned at not fewer than twenty thousand, and there were peltasts enough to be set in array against the whole world; for it is a task even to enumerate the cities which furnished them. - idem VI.1.18-19

Note that Jason as Tagus of Thessaly led quite a substantial army in the 370s BC, it being noteworthy that his boasts before the event amounted to considerably less than the actual totals Xenophon gives him as Tagus; Pherae alone would have fielded something more in line with your present totals.

[Duncan Head]

1) What or who were the Theban and Spartan allies that the general texts seem to refer?

Thebes was the leading city of Boiotia, and the other Boiotian cities were usually either allied or subject to Thebes. The Hellenica Oxyrhynchia describes a Boiotian constitution - which "appears to be the one set up in 447 after the battle of Coronea and the defeat of Athens" (McKechnie & Kern, Hellenica Oxyrhynchia, p.154): 

All those who lived in that area were arranged in eleven divisions and each of these provided a Boiotarch, as follows. Thebes contributed four (two for the city, two for Plataia, Skolos, Erythrai, Skaphai and the other places previously linked to them in one political entity but at that time subject to Thebes); Orchomenos and Hysiai provided two Boiotarchs; Thespiai with Eutresis and Thisbai provided two; Tanagra one; and Haliartos, Lebadea and Koroneia provided another .... and in the same way one came from Akraiphnion, Kopai and Chaironeia. ... For the organisation of the army, each division had to provide about one thousand hoplites and one hundred cavalry.

How late this constitution lasted I am not sure, but in any case the numbers of soldiers are likely to have been roughly the same in the 4th century. These Boiotian cities are the only semi-permanent "allies" of the Thebans; otherwise it would simply be a question of who was allied with whom at any given time.

2) What did a Thessalian army of this period contain. My current "plans" have about 3,000 cavalry, 2,000 peltasts and about 1,200 hoplites but this is likely to wrong.

There is a slightly odd quotation attributed to Aristotle:

The pelte is a shield that lacks an outer border, just as Aristotle claims in the Constitution of the Thessalians, writing as follows: 'After dividing up the cities, Aleuas ordered that each of them provide 40 cavalry and 80 hoplites per kleros.'

Taken literally, this implies that a Thessalian army should have twice as may hoplites as cavalrymen. This would fit - approximately - with the other figures Patrick cites. But as it stands, the quotation  does not follow on from the scholiast's preceding sentence about the pelte at all, so it has been suggested that Aristotle wrote "40 cavalry and 80 peltasts". And of course the quote refers back to the legendary Aleuas (perhaps 7th century, if he was historical at all?), so it is not clear whether it is authentic information about an ancient period or interpolated from Aristotle's own day in the 4th century. If Aristotle did refer to peltasts, then that presumably must be fourth- rather than seventh-century data.

In Hellenica VI.1.9, Xenophon quotes Jason as saying:

Again, while Thessaly is an exceedingly flat land, all the peoples round about are subject to her as soon as a Tagus is established here; and almost all who dwell in these neighbouring regions are javelin-men, so that it is likely that our force would be far superior in peltasts also.

These "subjects" are the perioikoi (the same name as the cities of Lakonia subject to the Spartans):

The three major perioikic regions—Magnesia, Perrhaebia, Achaia Phthiotis—are geographically contiguous to the tetrads.

[dwkay57]

Thanks for the information Duncan and Patrick.

Patrick is reading too much historical accuracy into my plans. The intention was to build a collection of 6mm Greek armies with which to fight solo battles and possibly (when I get more time) some form of campaign. The reason for choosing them was because as Duncan points out alliances tended to be fairly fluid and most of the historical battles seemed to suggest smallish armies at around the 10,000 person size. I could then mix and match accordingly. A 20,000 strong Thessalian army sounds slightly overscale.

I also wanted them to be differentiated between the different cities or conurbations, so whilst my Athenians and Spartans are each about 9,500 strong their rosters are substantially different. If I get my "play day" this Saturday they are due to face up, so I might bore everybody with posting a photo!

[Patrick Waterson]

Look forward to it! 

For the Thessalians, there seems to be enough basis to go with the standard 1 cavalry: 2 hoplites: N peltasts (where N is a number between 4 and the limits of rationality) or Duncan's implied 1 cavalry: 2 peltasts.  Your choice.

If your Thessalians are assumed to be elbowing in before Jason of Pherae became established, then yes, a historical or hypothetical hopeful on the way to Tagus status might field about 10,000 at some point in his career.

Have fun!

[dwkay57]

Of Thessalians:

In the Salamander book "Warfare in the Classical World" their is an army list for the battle of Mantinea (362BC) which contains a Thessalian contingent of 2,000 hoplites; 1,500 cavalry and a major portion of the 4,000 light troops. How represntative this is I don't know as I couldn't find any other breakdowns which identified a Thessalian contribution in such detail. In order to follow my idea of differentiating each Greek army, I'm taking the interpretation (possibly inaccurate) that Aristotle wasn't too precise on his definition of an infantryman, so my Thessalians will look something like 2,000 cavalry, 3,000 peltasts and just 1,600 hoplites. Suspect possibly, but not easily confused with any other Greekish army.

And about the Thebans:

Thanks for the information Duncan on the eleven divisions. Somewhat fortunately, my current Theban foot corps consists of the Boiotarch with his guard, the Sacred Band and some trained hoplites; plus four big "blobs" of militia hoplites which could represent those from Thebes and its close allies. The other groupings listed provide a good structure on which to base some allied corps of varying enthusiasm, size and composition.

Write up of recent Athenian v Spartan battle attached for those who either can't sleep.

[Patrick Waterson]

Interesting: what rules system were you using, David?  Everyone and everything seems to be conforming to a hex grid, as opposed to just using hexagonal terrain tiles.

The one surprise for me was the demise of the Spartan king in a victorious (at least in his sector) engagement.  If his unit had perished or been scattered to the four winds his demise would be less surprising, but I know of no Spartan king historically entering daisy-pushing mode while the troops of his immediate entourage were being successful.

Other than that (and peltasts rather than psiloi as a substantial portion of the Spartan light troop contingent) things went much as I would expect given the dispositions - the lowering morale of the Spartan light troops prevented their exploiting success after seizing the wood: this replicated what I would expect not so much from poor morale as from poor communications ("We've cleared the wood, now what?" "Dunno, no orders.") and characteristic Spartan lack of initiative by supporting arms.

One question-mark about Thessalians (which might be illuminating to explore on the tabletop battlefield) is how the army would be deployed and used.  Most of it is configured for rapid movement and presumably intended to pounce on an opponent's weak point(s) while avoiding the tougher parts of the line.  The hoplites are a slight anomaly here: too few for a line of battle, so may have been intended as a shock force to supplement a cavalry charge (pin 'em with the horse and smack 'em with the hoplites) in the style perhaps used by Alexander the Great's companions and hypaspists.  Peltasts can screen or at least stand watching the majority of an enemy infantry line and would probably avoid closing to contact, awaiting (and abiding by) the decision reached by the cavalry attack(s).

Whether the cavalry would go in head-on or try to flank the foe is an open question.  On the wargames table having the hoplites deploy to tackle the enemy wings while the cavalry outflanks to attack from flank or rear, and putting the peltasts in the centre to keep everyone else quiet, could work.

Anyway, congratulations to the Athenians on their success, and do keep us posted. 

[Duncan Head]

In the Salamander book "Warfare in the Classical World" their is an army list for the battle of Mantinea (362BC) which contains a Thessalian contingent of 2,000 hoplites; 1,500 cavalry and a major portion of the 4,000 light troops.

Which is, I think, a guess. Neither Xenophon nor Diodoros mentions the size of the Thessalian contingent, except that D does mention they provided a lot of the light infantry.