Far eastern horse armour

[nikgaukroger]

The catafract topic has got me thinking about the oft missed out far east.

Wondering about how common full horse armour was in the far east.

Whilst books like Ospreys often illustrate some cavalry from peoples like the Uighurs, Khitans, Mongols and, of course, various Chinese dynasties, with fully armoured horses they don't usually give any indication of how widespread the use was. For example was it limited to some sort of elite, whole "units", or more widespread or something else?

Any thoughts or pointers where useful information might be?

[Dangun]

I am fairly confident that, in the vast majority of cases, we don't know.
Its pretty rare to be able to even guess at the proportion of cavalry, let alone the distribution of what the horses were wearing.

I am speculating, because its not my thing, but I doubt the evidence for the number/proportion of cataphracts in near eastern armies is particularly detailed. If you asked the army list author where he got the number of cataphracts from, I think you'd be disappointed.

There are some Kogoryo tomb paintings with 100s of soldiers illustrated, you could assume that this reflects a historical army's troop ratio and go from there?

[Duncan Head]

We do have, for example, the example of the Sui invasion of Koguryo in 612, where each "army" ("division" might be a better translation) contained four regiments each of 1,000 cavalry on armoured horses, and no other cavalry except 200 horse-archers. Or the Khitan-Liao regulations where every "regular soldier" was supposed to have horse-armour.

In other cases - the Northern Dynasties, or Koguryo, for instance - I think all we have to go on is the overwhelming prevalence of horse-armour in art.

[nikgaukroger]

In other cases - the Northern Dynasties, or Koguryo, for instance - I think all we have to go on is the overwhelming prevalence of horse-armour in art.

Thought that's probably be the case 

Any recommended sites that might assist on the image front? Or is it charge headlong into Google Images and Pinterest 

[Duncan Head]

This pdf is a good starting-point for the Koguryo stuff, though it only illustrates Anak 3 and I think one other soldier-scene. I'm sure there is a good site for all the Koguryo tombs but can't find it right now.

And as recently mentioned in another thread, the Skupniewicz article on Sasanian barding has some East Asian images.

Some Chinese and steppe stuff also illustrated in David Nicolle's "Horse Armour in the Medieval Islamic Middle East" - and a "late antique" Yemeni relief I hadn't seen before, comparable to this one!

Brief note on late Chinese: http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2014/07/horse-armour-of-ming-dynasty.html

(Edit: just to tweak the typos)

[Dangun]

We do have, for example, the example of the Sui invasion of Koguryo in 612, where each "army" ("division" might be a better translation) contained four regiments each of 1,000 cavalry on armoured horses.

Are you sure it says "armoured horses"? I am guessing it more likely says the more ambiguous armoured cavalry. I can check the original, but you may have it in front of you.

The Kogoryo armoured horse, and the breakdown of the Sui, are touched upon in Slingshot 312.

[Duncan Head]

I don't have the text, but Graff seems certain - "armored soldiers on armored horses" - and I seem to recall the horse-armour being enumerated in one of the other accounts I've read - Yang Hong or Erling von Mende, I think. This is the famous case when the four cavalry "regiments" in each army are each outfitted in a distinctive colour.

[nikgaukroger]

This pdf is a good starting-point for the Koguryo stuff, though it only illustrates Anak 3 and I think one other soldier-scene. I'm sure there is a good site for all the Koguryo tombs but can't find it right now.

And as recently mentioned in another thread, the Skupniewicz article on Sasanian barding has some East Asian images.

Some Chinese and steppe stuff also illustrated in David Nicolle's "Horse Armour in the Medieval Islamic Middle East" - and a "late antique" Yemeni relief I hadn't seen before, comparable to this one!

Brief note on late Chinese: http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2014/07/horse-armour-of-ming-dynasty.html

(Edit: just to tweak the typos)

Cheers.

Already had the Nicolle one as it happens, and it was partly that which prompted my question 

[Dangun]

I don't have the text, but Graff seems certain.

It may well be... but it's the kind of detail that we have a very specific interest in, whereas a translator will not feel any particular need to be so precise about, as evidenced by Graff's varied translation of armour. It doesn't help that we have far fewer translations of the same Chinese documents than we do of Roman or Greek corollaries.

If you have a reference I can try looking it up.

[Andreas Johansson]

If the necromancy be excused, I stumbled upon this question which apparently never got a response:

It may well be... but it's the kind of detail that we have a very specific interest in, whereas a translator will not feel any particular need to be so precise about, as evidenced by Graff's varied translation of armour. It doesn't help that we have far fewer translations of the same Chinese documents than we do of Roman or Greek corollaries.

If you have a reference I can try looking it up.

Graff's citation reads as follows:

Yang Hong, Zhongguo gu bingqi luncong, p. 50; ZZTJ 176. p. 5499; and 181, p. 5660; and Asami Naoichirō, "Yōdai no dai ichiji Kōkurei enseigun: sono kibo to heishu," Tōyōshi kenkyū 44.1 (June 1985), p. 28 and passim.

Where ZZTJ is the Zizhi tongjian in a 1956 edition.

[Dangun]

THanks.
I'll take a look.
Just a thought though... the first chapter reference (176) is not actually in the Sui period, its the preceding dynasty.
But I'll take a look at chapter 181.

To the original question of horse armour... there is a lot of Sui and Tang ceramic cavalry and it comes in 2 varieties - armoured and unarmored.
I am not sure that barding can have been historically the majority for any army in any period... but present, and overly celebrated, sure.

[Swampster]

I am not sure that barding can have been historically the majority for any army in any period... but present, and overly celebrated, sure.

While not relevant to China, the late Medieval Italian stuff has the irritating tendency to show either virtually all horses in armour or virtually none in armour. When the armour is ubiquitous, it may be factual or an easy way to distinguish opponents - I don't think it is to glorify one side since it tends to be used for both sides. Where the armour is rare, I think in at least some cases it can be the artist saying 'Look how good I am at painting horses'.

At least with these, in my favoured rules, it doesn't matter how the horses are depicted, so I'm increasingly tending to present my armies as they are shown in contemporary art rather than agonizing whether it is a true reflection. (Same goes with my uniformed Swiss - including the bear figure fighting in the Bernese phalanx). 

P.

[Dangun]

Thanks Andreas for the reference!

Graff's citation reads as follows:

Yang Hong, Zhongguo gu bingqi luncong, p. 50; ZZTJ 176. p. 5499; and 181, p. 5660; and Asami Naoichirō, "Yōdai no dai ichiji Kōkurei enseigun: sono kibo to heishu," Tōyōshi kenkyū 44.1 (June 1985), p. 28 and passim.

So I looked up the 181st chapter of the ZZTJ online at http://www.guoxue.com/shibu/zztj/content/zztj_181.htm

I found the exceptionally useful paragraph in the year of 612CE where it says "each army consists of x, y, and z" (see Slingshot 312).

壬午，诏左十二军出镂方，长岑、溟海、盖马、建安、南苏、辽东、玄菟、扶馀、朝鲜、沃沮、乐浪等道，右十二军出黏蝉、含资、浑弥、临屯、候城、提奚、蹋顿、肃慎、碣石、东施、带方、襄平等道，骆驿引途，总集平壤，凡一百一十三万三千八百人，号二百万，其馈运者倍之。宜社于南桑干水上，类上帝于临朔宫南，祭马祖于蓟城北。帝亲授节度：每军大将、亚将各一人；骑兵四十队，队百人，十队为团，步卒八十队，分为四团，团各有偏将一人；其铠胄、缨拂、旗幡，每团异色；受降使者一人，承诏慰扶，不受大将节制；其辎重散兵等亦为四团，使步卒挟之而行；进止立营，皆有次叙仪法。癸未，第一军发；日遣一军，相去四十里，连营渐进；终四十日，发乃尽，首尾相继，鼓角相闻，旌旗亘九百六十里。御营内合十一卫、三台、五省、九寺，分隶内、外、前、后、左、右六军，次后发，又亘八十里。近古出师之盛，未之有也。

The bold bit is where it says, (every army contains) 40 dui of cavalry (骑兵四十队). It doesn't say anything about armour, either for the horse or the riders.

So can I just confirm (Andreas/Duncan) whether Graff's statement of armoured horse and armoured rider comes from this bit? Or some other bit? I'll have a sniff around in the rest of the chapter...

Addenda 1: This paragraph also ends the debate elsewhere in this forum about what the text actually says about infantry numbers. It says (each army contains) 80 dui divided into 4 tuan (步卒八十队, 分为四团).

[Andreas Johansson]

I have no way to tell which of the two ZZTJ passages or the two modern works is supposed to justify the "armored soldiers on armored horses" bit.

[Dangun]

I have no way to tell which of the two ZZTJ passages or the two modern works is supposed to justify the "armored soldiers on armored horses" bit.

Does Graff give any more context. Like... all Sui cavalry, all the time? Or at the battle of? Or in the year of? What is Graff describing when he says armoured soldiers on armoured horses? Any pointers, may help point me towards what he has seen.
Thanks