War Wagons (Slingshot)

[rodge]

It is mostly in French.

Merde. Over to the linguists then. Thanks for the link.

[rodge]

Roy has checked Antoche's book pages 104–106, 110–116 (the foot note info) and it seems there is no mention of the Turks using a tabor offensively.

[aligern]

There are two major problems for wagon forts operating on the move .
Firstly once you put artillery into the wagonburg it becomes incredibly difficult to fire and move. Even quite light fifteenth century guns are clumsy and heavy and need powder and balls,  ramrods, sponges, the thingy what routs out burning wadding from the barrel, buckets of water and so on.
Secondly, any disruption of the line of wagons screws up anything moving behind the blockage and a gap will appear in the line . If an opponent gets both sides of the waggon then it can be mobbed and overwhelmed.
There is plenty of evidence for  stationary wagon forts and lots of logic, it provides an effective way to incorporate immobile artillery and harden up troops such as arquebusiers that would find it difficult to resist horsemen, but are dangerous to cavalry if the horse are stalled in front of them. Plenty of logic and plenty of source material for wagons stationary on the field of battle, but not much for wagons moving tactically.  That does not prevent an army moving forward aggressively  and placing its tabor in the face of the enemy.
Roy

[Erpingham]

I found this quote from George Gush's Renaissance Armies interesting.  It post dates our period but it does reflect an evolved Tabor model

In emergency, the tabor could even be used in the attack. To escape a surprise by stronger forces, the wagons, packed with infantry, were formed into several small columns and driven full-tilt at the enemy centre, the cavalry riding on the flanks and exploiting the break-through. This actually worked on more than one occasion, though at the cost of losing the slower-moving artillery.

As I know very little about 16th-17th century Poles I'll leave it to others to expand.

One other thing I noted when checking Delbruck's account of war wagons was he notes that the Hussites are recorded as using offensive tactics with a wagonberg at the battle of Klattau in 1426 according to a report by Andreas of Regensberg.  I don't know if anyone has access to that.

[rodge]

I'd love to know where he found the source for that (seriously).
It is 'crossing the T'!
If it ever happened it must have been some sight...

[evilgong]

Hi there

I have seen a wonderful you-tube clip from a movie showing war-wagons moving to quickly deploy - from column to line.

When the first wagon moved to its desired position the second would drive to a position slightly behind it such that the horses were now behind the cart of the first wagon relative to the enemy and were thus protected by it.

The third would likewise from up on the second, and so on down the line which would be gently stepped as the enemy saw it.

The deployment was completed remarkably quickly and if it reflected historical practice you could imagine the horse teams being unhitched from their now covered protection or perhaps left in place if there was a need for a quick move to new position.

The movie was not in English and I think about the Hussites - somebody with good searching skills might be able to find it.

This is not the movie I was thinking of, but is pretty cool anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMVGUm-J1zQ

Regards

David F Brown

[Mark G]

You have to love communist era historic movies. 

Especially the medieval ones

[Justin Swanton]

Hi there

I have seen a wonderful you-tube clip from a movie showing war-wagons moving to quickly deploy - from column to line.

When the first wagon moved to its desired position the second would drive to a position slightly behind it such that the horses were now behind the cart of the first wagon relative to the enemy and were thus protected by it.

The third would likewise from up on the second, and so on down the line which would be gently stepped as the enemy saw it.

The deployment was completed remarkably quickly and if it reflected historical practice you could imagine the horse teams being unhitched from their now covered protection or perhaps left in place if there was a need for a quick move to new position.

The movie was not in English and I think about the Hussites - somebody with good searching skills might be able to find it.

This is not the movie I was thinking of, but is pretty cool anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMVGUm-J1zQ

Regards

David F Brown

Love it!

[rodge]

Great stuff

[Erpingham]

Here is a helpful diagram of how they did it.



Note the upper picture of a more deliberate deployment shows the baggage wagons in the centre and the maze-like interior as described in one of the sources quoted in the Slingshot article

[Swampster]

A couple of wagons draw up in that style in this clip around the 7 minute mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0GWk-5aF4E&t=417s
Later on, you can see the staggered effect which results.

Hi there

I have seen a wonderful you-tube clip from a movie showing war-wagons moving to quickly deploy - from column to line.

When the first wagon moved to its desired position the second would drive to a position slightly behind it such that the horses were now behind the cart of the first wagon relative to the enemy and were thus protected by it.

The third would likewise from up on the second, and so on down the line which would be gently stepped as the enemy saw it.

The deployment was completed remarkably quickly and if it reflected historical practice you could imagine the horse teams being unhitched from their now covered protection or perhaps left in place if there was a need for a quick move to new position.

The movie was not in English and I think about the Hussites - somebody with good searching skills might be able to find it.

This is not the movie I was thinking of, but is pretty cool anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMVGUm-J1zQ

Regards

David F Brown

[Patrick Waterson]

No replica weapon was harmed in the making of this film.

The extra wooden panels on the sides of the wagons are interesting: I had thought them to be pull-up protection for the crews, but in the films they just hang at the sides like spaced armour.

Does anyone know what their actual purpose was?

[Swampster]

My guess would be that they would stop penetration by crossbow bolts and offer some protection against gunpowder weapons. I should think that melee weapons might also be able to smash in the sides of a standard wagon.
They may also have been a way of making it harder to climb the sides of the wagon, especially as the top of the wheels are covered.

Various modern reconstructions show the use of loopholes and similar, but I think that would make close-in defence of the wagons difficult if the sides are too high to see over. (Though one of the period illustrations linked to before has the under-wagon protection which can be fired through, which would help).

[Jim Webster]

No replica weapon was harmed in the making of this film.

The extra wooden panels on the sides of the wagons are interesting: I had thought them to be pull-up protection for the crews, but in the films they just hang at the sides like spaced armour.

Does anyone know what their actual purpose was?

Spaced armour would work 

[Patrick Waterson]

The illustrations also seem to show the wagons as 'open' rather than with the sides pulled up and locked in place, so we may be on to something here, gentlemen.

I think Jim is right: spaced armour would work, and Peter's observations about these side panels being crossbow-bolt stoppers and a hindrance to climbers and side-smashers are spot on.  Knights with a good run-up might have been able to thrust lances through the sides of a standard wagon, but not through these shock-absorbent side panels and the side of a wagon.

The system would be rather less useful against artillery, but then it did not initially need to protect against artillery.