Chinese Elephant Models 15mm

[Nick Harbud]

Hi guys,

I am looking for a couple of suitable 15mm elephant models to form the Southern Han elephant corps.  So far the only Chinese elephant figure I have found is the Essex Shang or Chou elephant.  This shows a driver plus 1 crew with javelin/spear astride.  However, various lists allow me up to 4 archers, which would probably require some sort of platform or howdah to fit them all on.

Any suggestions for something suitable or, indeed, any illustrations of what these magnificent beasts might have looked like?

[Duncan Head]

They had towers on their backs, and "more than ten" armed crew, if I remember Schafer's article correctly.

I don't think anyone makes such an elephant, not explicitly identified and with Chinese crew. David Brown of Evil Gong was discussing producing such an elephant at some point, but I can't recall how far it got  - I think he may only sell via Facebook these days? You could use almost any Indian or Islamic towered elephant as a basis, I imagine.

[Andreas Johansson]

They had towers on their backs, and "more than ten" armed crew, if I remember Schafer's article correctly.

"Each carried ten or more men, presumably on some sort of platform, and all were stationed in line before the host", he writes.

Apparently the Southern Han weren't playing by rules where standing behind elephants is suicidal.

We're also told they were eventually defeated by Song crossbows. It makes intuitive sense to me that elephants would be vulnerable to massed archery, but this clearly doesn't universally apply in practice; cf especially ancient India, where massed foot archery apparently did nothing to discourage the use of the beasts.

[Duncan Head]

Apparently the Southern Han weren't playing by rules where standing behind elephants is suicidal.

Kenneth Swope on a C17th rebellion against the Ming:

Another problem was that Liu arrayed his thirteen elephant cavalry in the front of his formation, intending to use them as shock troops and protect the mostly unarmoured troops in the centre of his army.

Maybe it depends how close you're standing, or how closely-packed you are?

Edit: Actually, it looks as if they were playing by the same rules:

On 20 January the eastern Song army had almost reached Shaozhou. Li Chengwo arrayed a Southern Han army of more than a hundred thousand troops beneath Lianhuafeng Mountain blocking the Song army's route to the capital. War elephants, each carrying more than ten men, were placed at the front of the Southern Han formations to strengthen them. The Song army concentrated its crossbow fire on the elephants, causing them to flee. All the soldiers riding on the elephants were thrown off and trampled as the elephants stampeded back into the Southern Han formation. The Song army attacked the shatterred and disorganized Southern Han army, destroying its remaining cohesion.

From Peter Lorge's thesis at https://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1630&context=edissertations - probably in the Reunification... book as well, but not at hand.

[Andreas Johansson]

Evidently I should amend my statement: Apparently the Southern Han thought they weren't playing rules where standing behind elephants is suicidal.

[Duncan Head]

Some historical commanders just didn't read the rulebooks 

[aligern]

Can an elephant actually carry ten men ? ( as opposed to having a ten man team with it),
Roy

[Erpingham]

Can an elephant actually carry ten men ? ( as opposed to having a ten man team with it),
Roy

A bit of googling suggests that an elephant can carry about 25% of its body weight and Asian elephants weigh up to 4,500 kg.  So up to 1,125 kg.  Victorian reports suggest baggage elephants could carry up to 20 cwt (1 ton) which seems to fit.  So 10 men should be possible if they didn't have a lot of armour.

[Tim]

Some historical commanders just didn't read the rulebooks 

Another way in which some wargamers seem to emulate their historical counterparts...

[evilgong]

Yes I made up an armorued and unarmoured elephant (and a baggage elephant) to go with my SD Chinese.

No, they don't have 10 crew only 3.

David Brown
Evil Gong Miniatures

[Nick Harbud]

Many thanks to all who have responded.

David, I would very interested in your elephants.  Can you post a picture?

I also notice that Khurasan produce a baggage elephant figure that includes a guide, as noted in Schafer's article referenced above.  They also have this Khurasanian/Ghaznavid war elephant with tower that might be suitable.

All comments gratefully received.

[Andreas Johansson]

That Khurasan nellie is quite similar to Donnington's Timurid one.

[stevenneate]

Ghaznavid elephants perhaps?  Khurasan Miniatures does one.  Use something like Essex's generic or Chin Chinese infantry for the crew.

[evilgong]

Sorry i missed an earlier post.

I've put a pic of baggage and an armoured elephant on my FB page.

https://www.facebook.com/333789030678034/photos/pcb.571021533621448/571021456954789/?type=3&theater

[Dangun]

"Each carried ten or more men, presumably on some sort of platform.

Presumably, is quite a telling word.
It suggests there is no mention of a tower or a platform in the original text.
It might be a fair inference, but an inference only.

I will try and find the original tonight.