Chinese Elephant Models 15mm

[Andreas Johansson]

If it helps, the reference is Song Shi 65.5699b

[Dangun]

I don't mean to be a killjoy... but, Schafer also says that, "this battalion (of elephants), under the command of Wu Hsun, was effective during the Han invasion of Chu in 948CE, especially at the Battle of Ho."

But if we chase down the quote in 65.4469c, it says that, "Cheng thereby dispatched Wu Xun, director of the Giant ELephant regiments, and eunuch Wu Huaien to attack Hezhou."

So it mentions the director of Giant Elephants, but it doesn't mention  elephants, or elephants being effective. That is Schafer's inference from Wu Xun and Wu Huaien capturing the province. Again, it might be fair, but worth flagging. One siege and one raid are described, but no elephants are mentioned.

[Dangun]

I looked it up, and it does indeed say that every elephant carried 10 men (每象載十數人) Song she 481.5669.
It doesn't mention any structures, platforms or towers.
It does mention the poor oliphaunts were shot up by crossbowmen.

[aligern]

I remember  an article by Philip Rance  on elephants. Apparently they are useful in sieges because tgey can batter doors down with their heads , plus, of course a large elephant with a tower would be at the height of a low wall.
On holiday in India I noticed that doors of  forts and palace castles had large  projecting arrays of spikes at elephant head height to prevent them being pushed in by a large elephant.
Roy

[Andreas Johansson]

It doesn't mention any structures, platforms or towers.

Given Schafer's "presumably", it'd surprised me if it did!

I confess to some puzzlement how you'd usefully get ten men atop a single elephant with or without a platform. The weight (say 600 kg for ten unarmoured men) may be manageable, but it's gonna be pretty cramped, and war elephants in better-attested times and places never seem to have carried that many men.

Similar numbers are quoted for other obscure elephant corps, e.g. a Chinese description of Indo-Hephthalite war elephants, though, so it's not wholly unprecedented. But one dearly wishes one of the writers in question would have explained how it's supposed to work! It's hard not to wonder if it's exaggerations, or cases of ten men being assigned to each beast without all of them riding it simultaneously. Or militarily useless numbers squeezed in for parades?

[Jim Webster]

It doesn't mention any structures, platforms or towers.

Given Schafer's "presumably", it'd surprised me if it did!

I confess to some puzzlement how you'd usefully get ten men atop a single elephant with or without a platform. The weight (say 600 kg for ten unarmoured men) may be manageable, but it's gonna be pretty cramped, and war elephants in better-attested times and places never seem to have carried that many men.

Similar numbers are quoted for other obscure elephant corps, e.g. a Chinese description of Indo-Hephthalite war elephants, though, so it's not wholly unprecedented. But one dearly wishes one of the writers in question would have explained how it's supposed to work! It's hard not to wonder if it's exaggerations, or cases of ten men being assigned to each beast without all of them riding it simultaneously. Or militarily useless numbers squeezed in for parades?

one assumption in these cases is that they are the men who fought 'with' the elephant rather than just 'from' the elephant. So they'd be the escort on foot as well

[Duncan Head]

In the 每象載十數人 that Nicholas quotes, 載 is "carry" or "convey" (according solely to Google Translate, I claim no knowledge) which does sounds as if they are "carried on" rather than merely "accompanying".

Maybe "ten" could perhaps just be meant for "several"?

[stevenneate]

"Giant Elephant regiments"?  Could be a bunch of obese eunuchs with bellies like a Games Workshop ogre.  Note to self - build regiment of obese eunuchs.  I have Egyptian priests and medieval monks so why not?

[Dangun]

In the 每象載十數人 that Nicholas quotes, 載 is "carry" or "convey" (according solely to Google Translate, I claim no knowledge) which does sounds as if they are "carried on" rather than merely "accompanying".

Maybe "ten" could perhaps just be meant for "several"?

Indeed. It does mean carries.