Pict Army Lists?

[Erpingham]

There's also that some of the shields illustrated are a bit small, and to be "spearmen" in DB* you need to have a wall of substantial shields.

Though you always have to take care with the artistic conventions present, I'd say those infantry shields are intended to be about 3ft across.  Same size as Viking shields.  That poor spearman has probably dominated wargames armies of Picts forever.  Some think he represents some proto-schiltron, and Picts taught this formation to the Scots, however one might interpret this.  I would suggest, though, we are looking at an infantry force which has closed up to see off some cavalry.  Where that leaves discussions about normal Pictish infantry behaviour, I don't know.

[Andreas Johansson]

much more political than linguistic as they had the same basic language as the North Britons but perhaps less loan words from Latin

In Bede's view, the Strathclyders spoke the same "British" language as the Welsh, while the Picts had their own language, so I'd think the latter was fairly distinct.

That said, language borders themselves are often a question politics more than linguistics, and one could easily image what was spoken in Dumbarton was half-way between the vernaculars of Wales and Fortriu, but "British" rather than Pictish on grounds of ethno-political self-identification.

Though you always have to take care with the artistic conventions present, I'd say those infantry shields are intended to be about 3ft across.  Same size as Viking shields.

Vikings are not, however, "spearmen" in DBX.

[Duncan Head]

There's also that some of the shields illustrated are a bit small, and to be "spearmen" in DB* you need to have a wall of substantial shields.

Though you always have to take care with the artistic conventions present, I'd say those infantry shields are intended to be about 3ft across.  Same size as Viking shields.  That poor spearman has probably dominated wargames armies of Picts forever.  Some think he represents some proto-schiltron...

Hang on, which poor spearman? Are you talking about the Aberlemno anti-cavalry scene? That front-ranker's shield might be close to Viking size, but I don't think you can say the same about the Eassie cross spearman, whom I was talking about.

Ah, "Early" and "Late".  Where to put the line, or when did the picts start wearing clothes?

I don't know about clothes, but: The article on "doorknob" spearbutts which we discussed recently suggests that those items were used from the third century to the sixth or fifth. And Cassius Dio says that they were used on short spears, and shaken to terrify the enemy. Does their going out of use indicate a change in weaponry somewhen either side of AD500? And if so, then tactics too? From short spears and warbandy intimidation to, perhaps, longer spears and - what? Aberlemno shield-walls?

[Anton]

It had just diverged Andreas, they both started off speaking 'P' Celtic.  If I remember right David Dumville thought it happened in the 4th or 5th century.

On the infantry closing up to hold off cavalry.  Maybe that was their tactical function?  They were often facing horsey foes from the Old North and other Picts.  They also seem to have made more use of the bow than their neighbours. Their cavalry would then have a safe rallying point.  I'm guessing of course.

[Imperial Dave]

my take on it too re the Brythonic divergence

[Duncan Head]

They also seem to have made more use of the bow than their neighbours.

Actually, how much evidence is there for archery? There are the crossbows on the Drosten Stone and a couple of others, but what else?

[Erpingham]

Hang on, which poor spearman? Are you talking about the Aberlemno anti-cavalry scene? That front-ranker's shield might be close to Viking size, but I don't think you can say the same about the Eassie cross spearman, whom I was talking about.

Apologies for the confusion - I was indeed still referring to the Aberlemno chap.  It may, or may not, be significant that the Eassie spearman is in a hunting scene.  This might not affect the shield carried but is more likely to affect the preferred spear. 

Vikings are not, however, "spearmen" in DBX.

It's a whole different world   Fortunately, Stephen is using Comitatus.

[Anton]

I think that's it Duncan.

I'm starting to mess with the Comitatus stat's now.  It won't end well.

[Imperial Dave]

what are you pitting them against?

[aligern]

The Picts are not known in any systematic manner, so youbare bound to end up wit elements in the list based on very little evidence. May I cite Gallic light and skirmishing infantry, for example? They don't get mentioned in jany accounts of Gauls fighting, the Galatians lose because they do not have an evfective arm. Yet on occasion they get mentioned. at the Sambre think. Aren't tge Eburones said to practice a light infantry tactic , skirmishing in woods daily?  Vercingetorix establishes a register of archers and recruits 10,000 in Gaul ( hope the number is right) . One might conclude that this is extraordinary and normally they do not fight, but doesn't Caesar recruit a number from Gaul   as mercenaries  to fight in Spain. I don)t recall, though that Gallic archers cone up much in the archaeological record.  I am willing to bet that light troops are often invisible to contemporary commentators. Sane with the early Germans .  The Picts are one of thipise armies that it difficult to be hard-nosed about , but one suspects they had a fair number of troops able to form as lights.

I like the idea of Picts being able to run across the hills in  loose order, clumping together  to resist cavalry, full marks to the originator.  That would ge the sane  as the Welsh, at home  in a forest but handy outside Hereford in a wide falley facing amateur Saxon cavalry.
Roy

[Imperial Dave]

thanks Roy, good points to make re the lights. Absence of mention does not necessarily mean absence of presence...! The idea of predominantly (long) spear armed soldiery that move easily across bad going and then form close knit groups for resisting cavalry also appeals to me

[Erpingham]

The idea of predominantly (long) spear armed soldiery that move easily across bad going and then form close knit groups for resisting cavalry also appeals to me

Having touched on the intricacies of wargames terms, what shall we call them.  Light Medium Infantry, perhaps

[Imperial Dave]

The idea of predominantly (long) spear armed soldiery that move easily across bad going and then form close knit groups for resisting cavalry also appeals to me

Having touched on the intricacies of wargames terms, what shall we call them.  Light Medium Infantry, perhaps

Lol.....fast pikes maybe? 

[Baldie]

Try facing them in SAGA,  a game I love, they are brutal.
Fast  - can avoid some terrain
Tricksey - can run away from a scrap
Shoot- access to bow and x bow
Fight- some combos they can get great combat skills

Dont get me started on their boss in a go cart with in effect a 2L command range

[Imperial Dave]

sounds punchy lol