Warwagons on the move.

[Jim Webster]

Just been reading "A brief examination of warfare by medieval urban militias in Central and Northern Europe" as recommended somewhere on the forum 

There are some interesting comments about warwagons.
"In many key battles during the Hussite Wars and afterword these wagons were used aggressively, such as at Kutná Hora in 1421. Advancing in columns with the more heavily armoured wagons on the outside and lighter supply wagons on the inside, they drove into enemy formations lxxiii. When under fire too heavy to use horses the large crews could easily push the wagons at a walking pace, and wooden mantlets were also created to protect horses from enemy gunfire.

The source is ""János Hunyadi: Preventing the Ottomans from Conquering Western Europe in the Fifteenth century",
Major Barnabás Bartók, U.S. Army Command and General Staff College (2011), page 42"


"In 1440 hussite war-wagons in the army of Jan Hunyadi helped defeat Ottoman cavalry at Szekszárd (lxxv) and again at Gyulafehérvár in 1442 (lxxvi.) In these two battles the Hussites deployed what would later become a standard tactic: the war-wagons wheeled around to take the enemy army in the rear of their column, sowing chaos and panic in their ranks. The
Russians would use virtually the same tactics 100 years later in the Battle of Molodi in 1572.

The source is the same book as mentioned about

Finding much about the two battles of Hunyadi is tricky but in the wiki for Molodi it comments

"The Russian forces, variously estimated at between 23,000–25,000 men, were placed under the supreme command of Prince Mikhail Vorotynsky. Prince Repnin led the left flank, while the right flank was commanded by Prince Odoevsky. On 30 July the armies clashed near the Lopasnya River without so much as a prior reconnaissance. The fighting continued for several days, reaching its peak on 8 August. The large amount of close-in fighting made the Tatars' famed skill in archery quite useless:[2] the battle was fought principally with sabers and spears. Artillery and arquebuses were also used by the Russians to great effect. The outcome was decided by Prince Khvorostinin who bypassed the horde with his gulyay-gorod (гуляй-город) mobile fortifications and infiltrated into the rear."

There appears to be some discussion as to whether warwagons were capable of fighting a mobile battle and I wondered if anybody had any other sources?

[Erpingham]

Bartok's Masters thesis JÁ NOS HUNYADI: PREVENTING THE OTTOMANS FROM CONQUERING WESTERN EUROPE IN THE FIFTEENTH CENTURY is online.  Bartok was a major in the Hungarian Army studying in the US.

[Jim Webster]

Bartok's Masters thesis JÁ NOS HUNYADI: PREVENTING THE OTTOMANS FROM CONQUERING WESTERN EUROPE IN THE FIFTEENTH CENTURY is online.  Bartok was a major in the Hungarian Army studying in the US.

Thanks, downloaded, there's a few more dinner times reading sorted 

[Erpingham]

Another one I'm not sure we've had is A few considerations concerning the presence of hussite-style war wagons as part of John Hunyadi's army by Raul-Alexandru Todika, who appears to be Romanian.  This is quite detailed but uses the old academic convention of not translating Latin sources, so I can't tell what, if anything, it tells us about the question at hand.

[Jim Webster]

Another one I'm not sure we've had is A few considerations concerning the presence of hussite-style war wagons as part of John Hunyadi's army by Raul-Alexandru Todika, who appears to be Romanian.  This is quite detailed but uses the old academic convention of not translating Latin sources, so I can't tell what, if anything, it tells us about the question at hand.

My lunchtimes are tied up for quite a while, thanks 

[Mark G]

The Lance and longbow society have a booklet on Hunyadi too.

I can't do a quick scan of contents for you now though, as my builders are a week behind due to wood supplies from the mainland being disrupted, so the bookshelves we still jammed into the kitchen.

But I'm sure it'll be worth a punt from the website on spec.

[Jim Webster]

The Lance and longbow society have a booklet on Hunyadi too.

I can't do a quick scan of contents for you now though, as my builders are a week behind due to wood supplies from the mainland being disrupted, so the bookshelves we still jammed into the kitchen.

But I'm sure it'll be worth a punt from the website on spec.

Oh hum, punt taken 

[Duncan Head]

There's also a Helion book on Hunyadi that's now supposed to be out in September - I have had this one on order for a year or so -  and a Heer und Waffen on Hussite warfare that is now available in English.

I have a vague recollection that there is only one contemporary account of Hussite wagons moving on the battlefield, and that has been called into question. About the Hungarian usage I know even less.

[Jim Webster]

There's also a Helion book on Hunyadi that's now supposed to be out in September - I have had this one on order for a year or so -  and a Heer und Waffen on Hussite warfare that is now available in English.

I have a vague recollection that there is only one contemporary account of Hussite wagons moving on the battlefield, and that has been called into question. About the Hungarian usage I know even less.

your vague recollection matches mine so I was curious 

[Tim]

Duncan, I do hope you are not planning to debunk a favoured wargamers trope...

[Swampster]

Delbruck is very scathing of the idea of offensive action by the wagons, blaming it on misunderstandings.
The Freezywater Hunyadi book is pretty interesting. The author is certainly in the wagon as APC camp (he even calls them armoured personnel carriers). At a battle in 1442, the wagons are described maneuvering round the Ottomans, at Kossovo, they are described advancing head on into the janissaries but having to form a wagon fort as things go badly. At Varna, the wagons are in a wagonburg substantially to the rear of the action. I don't know how secure the description of offensive action by the wagons is.

I'm keeping my eye out for the Helion book. Hopefully it will have more detail.
I have the Heere und Waffen Hussite books (two volumes, but I think only one in English) but in German. The section on wagon tactics doesn't seem very long though I can only make out the basics. I would like to see how good it is in English before duplicating it - I got the impression that there is less detail than in the H&W Teutonic Knights book.