Breton armies 5th-10th centuries

[lionheartrjc]

I am looking to do some research on Breton armies.  Are there any books, items on Academia or from other sources that someone could recommend?

Richard

[Duncan Head]

A few references at http://tabulaenovaeexercituum.pbworks.com/w/page/14246652/Breton

This paper references what seems to be the source for the idea sometimes found on the net, that Bretons carried black shields - see note 83.

[aligern]

That's a really interesting post Duncan.  Taken in the context of the author's description of Ermold's poetic use if language the reference to shields may be more  a matter of the Breton leader saying ' My shields are besmirched by my villainy, yours pure, or they might be genuine colour differences .

Roy

[Duncan Head]

Taken in the context of the author's description of Ermold's poetic use if language the reference to shields may be more  a matter of the Breton leader saying ' My shields are besmirched by my villainy, yours pure, or they might be genuine colour differences .

Exactly. And of course if they are genuine black shields, they may only be those of one specific leader at one specific time - not, as I've seen implied, "the Bretons" generally.

Though the link to the later Breton dukes' black-and-white "ermine" arms and the 15th-century black cross field-sign is tempting, it's probably a step too far!

[Imperial Dave]

The earlier stuff to the 6th century probably not much different to late Roman. It's tempting to say that 7th century onwards might look similar to Western British armies but the proximity to Frankish control would also surely have an influence

[aligern]

Ahhh  Don't the Bretons  turn up to support Aetius?  That would argue for them looking like  LRE Roman auxilia in the fifth century. IIRC there is an issue reported in Gregory of Tours  where a unit masquerades as Bretons, or is it Bretons masquerading?  Anyhow it woukd be fair evidence for Bretons being different from Franks.
Roy

[aligern]

The piece  in Gregory of Tours refers to an incident where Queen Fredegund  orders the  Bayeux Saxons  to wear Breton clothing and sport  Breton hairstyles to join with the  Bretons against the Frank Beppolen. So Breton costume must have been different from that of Saxons and Franks.

Roy

[Jim Webster]

The piece  in Gregory of Tours refers to an incident where Queen Fredegund  orders the  Bayeux Saxons  to wear Breton clothing and sport  Breton hairstyles to join with the  Bretons against the Frank Beppolen. So Breton costume must have been different from that of Saxons and Franks.

Roy

According to Wiki, Queen Fredegund died on the 8th December 597
So we can say with reasonable confidence that Breton and Frankish costume and hairstyles were different up until the 6th century.
We then have Holly's comment about the 7th century. Whilst I couldn't claim to be a fashion expert, I would have thought that they would be slow to change the further down society you got. After all a lot of clothing would be made at home and people would just follow traditional patterns because that's what they knew.

Jim

[Tim]

My sort of topic. More please.

[Imperial Dave]

The piece  in Gregory of Tours refers to an incident where Queen Fredegund  orders the  Bayeux Saxons  to wear Breton clothing and sport  Breton hairstyles to join with the  Bretons against the Frank Beppolen. So Breton costume must have been different from that of Saxons and Franks.

Roy

According to Wiki, Queen Fredegund died on the 8th December 597
So we can say with reasonable confidence that Breton and Frankish costume and hairstyles were different up until the 6th century.
We then have Holly's comment about the 7th century. Whilst I couldn't claim to be a fashion expert, I would have thought that they would be slow to change the further down society you got. After all a lot of clothing would be made at home and people would just follow traditional patterns because that's what they knew.

Jim

agreed to a point although if a powerful neighbour had a fashionable and hip leader then the smaller kingdom might ape those fashions to curry favour etc.....might take some time but Frankish influence was felt in Kent fairly early on...why not in Brittany?

[aligern]

Because Franks actually arrived in Kent?  The period of Clovis was one of forced  Frankish unification. From quite distinct tribes with related but separate kings, Clovis built a Dynasty with no rivals.  That will have displaced some aristocrats who chose to move on with  their familia...it happens to Goths ( Sarus)  , Gepids ( Mundo) , Lombards (Ikdiger) , Heruls and we only know of these because of their contact with Rome/ Constantinople .  So there is a reasonable explanation why small groups of Franks might head for Kent. There's also the point that the Jutes ( and possibly others) in Kent had the Channel between themselves and the Frankish juggernaut and could  adopt/ trade/gift jewellery , fittings  and weapons without fear of being misidentified in some conflict.
Fir the Bretons, by contrast, adopting Frankish identifiers might have been a weakening if identity that was threatening.  both at hone and abroad.  The Bretons maintain a separate language, religion and jurisdiction quite fiercely.  They  are in the classic situation of a small culture next to a large dynamic one and thus maintain their  distinctions  aggressively .
Roy

[aligern]

The conundrum as regards Breton armies is the extent and nature of Alan influence.
Bachrach is keen on the idea that Alans are a cavalry army, they have missile weapons and horse armour and this transmits to tge Bretons. 
We can be assured that the Alans in Gaul have armoured cavalry ( though nit so conclusive that its horse  armour) and bows and are settled in ethnic groups that would  maintain fighting style.
There is every likelihood that the horse armour would be dropped because it is expensive, encumbering and Alans in Gaul are not facing much archery . Body armour is a different case against enemies  mainly using javelins.  The mounted bows are more useful, but its difficult to keep up 'massed' horse archery as a tactical  method over several generations
The problem with the Bretons is that they appear as javelin armed cavalry, not as horse  archers, or as heavy lancers.  Their skirmishing tactics are noted as like steppe peoples in that they advance, deliver a volley   and retreat . However, they may not be skirmish cavalry or light horse in the wargames sense, simply  cavalry with a missile option. If we believe that the  knights at Hastings are riding up  to the Saxons, throwing a spear , turning on the spot and riding off ( what was once suggested as a caracole) then that might be similar   to the  Bretons.
The Breton javelin tactics might well have a British root, back to Western British cavalry, which would at least fit with the fighting style of those who formed the body of immigrants into Brittany that gave tge duchy its unique post Roman character.
Its not impossible that an Alan custom is imported into Armorica and into the Breton upper echelon, though we might expect charging heavy cavalry to be the resultant style.  Its not impossible that  its British...depends what Riothamus  left behind?

[Jim Webster]

The piece  in Gregory of Tours refers to an incident where Queen Fredegund  orders the  Bayeux Saxons  to wear Breton clothing and sport  Breton hairstyles to join with the  Bretons against the Frank Beppolen. So Breton costume must have been different from that of Saxons and Franks.

Roy

According to Wiki, Queen Fredegund died on the 8th December 597
So we can say with reasonable confidence that Breton and Frankish costume and hairstyles were different up until the 6th century.
We then have Holly's comment about the 7th century. Whilst I couldn't claim to be a fashion expert, I would have thought that they would be slow to change the further down society you got. After all a lot of clothing would be made at home and people would just follow traditional patterns because that's what they knew.

Jim

agreed to a point although if a powerful neighbour had a fashionable and hip leader then the smaller kingdom might ape those fashions to curry favour etc.....might take some time but Frankish influence was felt in Kent fairly early on...why not in Brittany?

The question is who it was felt by. The aristocracy may have gifted each other clothes (or women to make them) and so court fashions would spread.
But the peasantry aren't going to get caught up in that sort of thing quite as rapidly.
It really depends where you see your fighting men fitting in the social scale. The younger nobility might well turn up to lead contingents wearing new fashions. Slowly the ideas might defuse down, especially if the fashion looked better or had practical advantages.

[Imperial Dave]

absolutely (to both Jim and Roy's points)

- yes the Bretons were fiercely 'tribal' and appeared to successfully resist Frankish domination for a long time (not too dissimilar to the situation in Western Britain circa 7th C onward with the emerging 'Welsh' identity and kingdoms resisting the emerging 'English' identity and kingdoms). Also they are 'reinforced' over a number of years either in pulses or a steady dribble of ex-pats from Britannia thus maintaining that identity to a degree.
- Interesting point about the Breton Cavalry Roy. I would possibly see the Breton Cavalry emerging not from a too dissimilar starting point as British Cavalry. Ride up, chuck javelins, ride away.
- Yes too the lower echelons of Breton society would have been very similar to Western British lower echelons in terms of clothing, styles, language etc.

My general point is that once we get away from the general migration and immediately post Roman periods, kingdoms begin to form more permanency so I see that Bretons arms and armour can be kind of split along those line. Pre 7th C they follow British patterns etc reasonably closely, post 7th C they begin to be more continentally influenced
 

[aligern]

I rather think that the Bretons would be best represented by MeG flexible cavalry , able to morph from throwing javelins and evading to a stand up fight . I would think they were a bit less effective at hand to hand than cavalry that are pure spear armed.

If Breton infantry can form alongside Saxons and the enemy be fooled into thinking Saxons are Bretons,  then the Saxons cannot be that different. Now there is a good case that Saxon infantry in the VIth and Early VIIth century have modest sized round shields and a pair if throwing soears plus seaxes. Leaders and their  30 strong comitatus  might well have larger shields and a heavier thrusting spear, but they would  be at the  heart of a looser formed unit, not separate units on their  own, unless its a Saga force.
It might thus be reasonable for Breton infantry  to have javelins, smaller round shields and some  sort of hand weapon and to fight in looser order.