Mixed Armour types in EIR Legions

[DougM]

Sorry if this is obvious, but I see figures available for EIR that are identical other than the armour type (mail vs segmented) - do we know if mixed armour types would occur in a unit/cohort/legion? i.e. would an entire legion be kitted out from legion supplies of a standard type, or would new drafts potentially be issued a different type at the depot before marching to join their parent legion? Or would existing armour be kept and replacements of the latest type only issued when the mail was beyond repair?

Presumably 'spares' especially of fittings would be an issue.

Basically, can I get away with mixing mail and segmentata in the same unit?

[Duncan Head]

The general feeling seems to be that they might have been mixed, though I don't know of any hard evidence for that, except perhaps for the use of both mail and scale on the Adamklissi metopes. Both mail and sgmentata plates were found in the same Newstead deposit, for instance - though we can't be sure that they were both worn, by infantry rankers, at the same date.

[Imperial Dave]

I don't see why you can't mix both armour types Doug. The old way of thinking used to be segmented armour legionaries and mail for auxiliaries. I suspect.on the back of other discussions you might find that a group of new recruits were handed whatever there was in the quartermasters stores especially in far flung provinces...

[aligern]

Indeed, if the state and private arms factories were set up for largely replacing worn out product then it would be very difficult to replace whole units of the size of legions at a time.   If there were were say 500,000 armoured men in the imperial military, one might expect armour to last for 20 years ( no major battle losses and field repairs by the unit) then the industry would be producing 25,000 armours a year. Say armour lasts ten years then its 50,000 sets a year, so a complete work through would take  ten years .  I'd accept that the industry could be geared up , but why would you, purely for uniformity's sake?  As the wear on armour is spread around  all units equally then replacing a whole unit at a time would involve moving a lot of suits around so that one or two legions had all the worn sets ready for replacement.  Why bother?

Someone mentioned, it may well have been at the Society Conference that wearing segmentata  and even tile shaped scuta may well have hung on well into the reign of Constantine as replacement worked through.  As to artistic representation , I suppose we would expect the latest styles to be on the reliefs.
Roy

[Tim]

Doug, good on your for raising this topic. I will follow with interest.

[Imperial Dave]

Possibly the only exception would be the Praetorians

[DougM]

Doug, good on your for raising this topic. I will follow with interest.

Well, I confess I know not much about EIR other than Asterix comics* And I have gathered some figures for Infamy, so I am wondering what they should look like. Of course, the temptation is to do the Hollywood version, but i suspect the reality is not only more interesting to read about, but also more interesting to assemble and paint.

It's all part of the discussion about what our Romans actually looked like. My own suspicion is that there is an easy (and wrong) answer..  same with Auxilliaries.

* and of course - those would be Caesarian/Marian legions, so not EIR. But if Goscinny and Uderzo can get away with it...

[Tim]

Doug, good on your for raising this topic. I will follow with interest.

Well, I confess I know not much about EIR other than Asterix comics* And I have gathered some figures for Infamy, so I am wondering what they should look like. Of course, the temptation is to do the Hollywood version, but i suspect the reality is not only more interesting to read about, but also more interesting to assemble and paint.

It's all part of the discussion about what our Romans actually looked like. My own suspicion is that there is an easy (and wrong) answer..  same with Auxilliaries.

* and of course - those would be Caesarian/Marian legions, so not EIR. But if Goscinny and Uderzo can get away with it...

Asterix comics are a primary source are they not? My EIR legions were painted from them, not having the Osprey to hand at the time...

I also strongly suspect that Octavian did not change the way legions looked immediately, not least because that would have cost money; a unit in 44BC might not look that different to the same unit in 25BC...

[aligern]

Interesting, too, Tim, to look at some typologies .
The mail shirts change,  The helmets change and the shields change. What does this tell us about what is going on, because its not just a straight cutoff from mail to segmentata  and the manufacture/ conversion of kit must be coped with by  industrial complex.  Similarly at the other end as segmentata is dropped.
Roy

[Jim Webster]

Way back, Phil Barker postulated that during the civil wars hastily raised legions had leather armour as it was faster and easier to produce than equipping everybody with mail

Given the speed with which people raised legions and the sheer number raised (Augustus apparently had 50 left and that was after disbanding most of Mark Anthony's 17.)

Even if these legions were under strength, mail is not something you can manufacture particularly rapidly

[Imperial Dave]

The question I would ask, which is alluded to previously, is what is the catalyst for change? Is Segmentata quicker to produce than mail? Is it developed in response to a particular need ie an enemy weapon(s) or general threat? Is it better or is it worse for protection....which could be linked to the speed of manufacture question? Do specific units or legions get this new armour and what is the level of 'blind eye' applied by the legions for hodgepodge kit?

[DougM]

The question I would ask, which is alluded to previously, is what is the catalyst for change? Is Segmentata quicker to produce than mail? Is it developed in response to a particular need ie an enemy weapon(s) or general threat? Is it better or is it worse for protection....which could be linked to the speed of manufacture question? Do specific units or legions get this new armour and what is the level of 'blind eye' applied by the legions for hodgepodge kit?

I also wonder whether the 'new' armour would be allocated by unit or by individual. Were armourers working at cohort or legion level? It would make some sense to group all of a single armour type together for ease of supply of parts and fittings. 

[Jim Webster]

The question I would ask, which is alluded to previously, is what is the catalyst for change? Is Segmentata quicker to produce than mail? Is it developed in response to a particular need ie an enemy weapon(s) or general threat? Is it better or is it worse for protection....which could be linked to the speed of manufacture question? Do specific units or legions get this new armour and what is the level of 'blind eye' applied by the legions for hodgepodge kit?

I also wonder whether the 'new' armour would be allocated by unit or by individual. Were armourers working at cohort or legion level? It would make some sense to group all of a single armour type together for ease of supply of parts and fittings.

I think that various things were done at various levels. Some of it was by 'posting'. If you were in a cohort or half cohort stationed in a certain place, a lot of stuff could be fixed locally, and if the place had a reasonable town anywhere near, you could probably buy replacement swords etc (or have them made)
But I would suspect recruits were fitted out by the parent unit on joining, so they probably turned up at the camp with the legionary HQ (or for auxiliaries the fort where the main part of the Auxilia was based. )

When the recruit had their kit and finished their training did anybody bother what the detachment they joined was wearing?

With regard to armour, apparently mail is easier and faster to put on and more 'comfortable'
But Segmentata is cheaper, uses less metal and so weighs less. It's also harder to clean (rolling it about in a barrel of sand isn't an option)  I suspect it could have been faster to produce.

Looking at one of the sites producing equipment for reenactors  https://www.soulofthewarrior.com/roman-armor  properly made mail with riveted rings is roughly twice the price of decent segmentata which probably puts things in context 

[DougM]

The question I would ask, which is alluded to previously, is what is the catalyst for change? Is Segmentata quicker to produce than mail? Is it developed in response to a particular need ie an enemy weapon(s) or general threat? Is it better or is it worse for protection....which could be linked to the speed of manufacture question? Do specific units or legions get this new armour and what is the level of 'blind eye' applied by the legions for hodgepodge kit?

I also wonder whether the 'new' armour would be allocated by unit or by individual. Were armourers working at cohort or legion level? It would make some sense to group all of a single armour type together for ease of supply of parts and fittings.

I think that various things were done at various levels. Some of it was by 'posting'. If you were in a cohort or half cohort stationed in a certain place, a lot of stuff could be fixed locally, and if the place had a reasonable town anywhere near, you could probably buy replacement swords etc (or have them made)
But I would suspect recruits were fitted out by the parent unit on joining, so they probably turned up at the camp with the legionary HQ (or for auxiliaries the fort where the main part of the Auxilia was based. )

When the recruit had their kit and finished their training did anybody bother what the detachment they joined was wearing?

With regard to armour, apparently mail is easier and faster to put on and more 'comfortable'
But Segmentata is cheaper, uses less metal and so weighs less. It's also harder to clean (rolling it about in a barrel of sand isn't an option)  I suspect it could have been faster to produce.

Looking at one of the sites producing equipment for reenactors  https://www.soulofthewarrior.com/roman-armor  properly made mail with riveted rings is roughly twice the price of decent segmentata which probably puts things in context 

Yep - my thoughts as well. I also considered whether recruits or drafts sent  to join the legion would be kitted out at the depot with the armour at hand. And when they arrived, would the old sweats laugh at their new-fangled armour?

[Jim Webster]

Yep - my thoughts as well. I also considered whether recruits or drafts sent  to join the legion would be kitted out at the depot with the armour at hand. And when they arrived, would the old sweats laugh at their new-fangled armour?

I suspect there would be an element of dumping the unsuitable crap on the newbie who's being stationed away. So you can book it out to him at full price because he knows no better and hasn't made the contacts yet to be able to get himself a better deal.