Cavalry Tactics at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields

[Cantabrigian]

you could probably hit them at speed if you were willing to risk horses tripping over bodies.

I think that's an interesting point. The centre of gravity of a horse and rider moving at speed would be considerably higher than that of any close-order infantry they collided with, making a trip much more likely.  They might have the momentum to break through, but would probably come out the far side as a flailing ball of broken flesh.

If the infantry are in loose order or disordered you've got far more chance of pushing them aside.  Also reducing your impact speed would reduce the risk, but at the cost of less momentum.

[Erpingham]

If the infantry are in loose order or disordered you've got far more chance of pushing them aside.  Also reducing your impact speed would reduce the risk, but at the cost of less momentum.

Yes.  Hitting troops who are not solid - loose order, disordered, waivering - at speed was probably do-able.  The comments in the blog about keeping moving and needing space apply here.  The emphasis was on scattering and killing.  If the formation remained solid , the emphasis would be on breaking its order first and that probably meant a more controlled impact, possibly more probing attacks.  We actually don't have as much detail on this as we would like, but that would be my reading of how medieval cavalry tackled solid infantry.

[Mark G]

I'm a bit skeptical about using the film as a model, since the film dramatically increases the visual effect.

I may have even been shushed in the cinema for shouting out 'there's more than 6000 cavalry there !' when the supposed 6000 that were assembled suddenly doubled on screen for the charge itself.

a point that I felt vindicated on somewhere in the big box set commentaries, when the digital effects team admitted there were 12 000 on screen at that point.

and lets not start on the charge down the mountain that Gandalf leads in film 2.

[Imperial Dave]

and lets not start on the charge down the mountain that Gandalf leads in film 2.

that has been raging everytime!

[Duncan Head]

I may have even been shushed in the cinema for shouting out 'there's more than 6000 cavalry there !' when the supposed 6000 that were assembled suddenly doubled on screen for the charge itself.

a point that I felt vindicated on somewhere in the big box set commentaries, when the digital effects team admitted there were 12 000 on screen at that point.

6,000 troopers and 6,000 armed grooms or pages 

The Rohirrim don't count the latter, of course, but the enemy will. And then the orcish historians will probably double it again for good measure.

[Imperial Dave]

clearly the scops will sing of only brave King Theoden armed only with a butter knife.....

[Justin Swanton]

clearly the scops will sing of only brave King Theoden armed only with a butter knife.....

Brave King Theoden
he had six thousand men,
He charged right through ten ranks of orcs
Then he charged through ten again.

(sorry!)

[evilgong]

Hi there

>>>>
I may have even been shushed in the cinema for shouting out 'there's more than 6000 cavalry there !

>>>>>>

I was watching film 1 at home with some friends when the scene appears with Aragon speaking elvish and they put up sub-titles; I involuntarily called out 'he didn't quite say that'. 

When you spot some debatable elvish translations in real time you know you spent your youth reading well.

David F Brown. 

[Jim Webster]

Wasn't it the French King Francis who led his Gendarmes in charges that passed through Pike formations but the pike morale was good enough to reform ?

[Mark G]

Is that the somewhat suspect description of a charge breaking into a Kiel and riding out the other side because once inside the spear points, it was "impossible " for the footmen to bring their weapons to bear on him?

[Imperial Dave]

with orcsies, their morale is paper thin. Once charged through they go shriek-sing back to Mordor

[aligern]

The Byzantine tenth century manuals clearly envisage that armoured men on armoured horses can break into a well irdered foot formation.  The armoured horses  break the normal infantry spears, so the Byzantines  devise squads armed with the menaulion, a thick spear to stop the cataphracts.  I suggest that the penetration is accomplished because the Byzantine's enemy is on armoured horses the  knights of Francis 1 are.
Roy

[Cantabrigian]

The Byzantine tenth century manuals clearly envisage that armoured men on armoured horses can break into a well irdered foot formation.  The armoured horses  break the normal infantry spears, so the Byzantines  devise squads armed with the menaulion, a thick spear to stop the cataphracts.  I suggest that the penetration is accomplished because the Byzantine's enemy is on armoured horses the  knights of Francis 1 are.
Roy

I guess the question I'd have is at what speed they broke into the formation.  Anyone who's seen police horses in action wouldn't doubt that they could push their way in at walking pace, and the additional armour of a cataphract might make this a survivable tactic, and probably quite devastating to the infantry.

I'd imagine that the cataphracts would be going faster than a walk, but how much faster?

[Erpingham]

I guess the question I'd have is at what speed they broke into the formation.

One of the great mysteries of medieval combat

We know , both from the manual that Roy quoted and also other medieval descriptions, that cavalry could hit infantry with the force to break spears, which suggests more than a walk. 

[aligern]

Indeed Anthony , faster than a walk because the cavalry are relying on their horses to push the footmen to either side and, without needing to be be too quick, keep the infantry off balance.  The Courtrai chest shows the Flemish infantry fronted by spears, goedendag ( club) wielders next and then buckler and falchion guys.   I take that to mean an acceptance that knights are going to break into the , but be slowed by the spears, battered down by the goedendags and despatched by the falchions.
Roy