Hittite Chariots at Kadesh

[Cyrus]

This has probably been brought up before but I couldn't find a thread searching the forum. I was listening to the Bronze Age MeG Players' podcast recently and it said that it was now widely accepted that Hittite chariots were used much as Egyptian chariots - as a mobile shooting platform. There was a reference to a podcast by Mike Loades discussing his experience with chariots and archery, which was very interesting. I'm not sure what other references there are to this and would be grateful if anyone could point me in the right direction. The evidence of three crew chariots on the Battle of Kadesh reliefs at Ramses II tombs at Abu Simbel, Abydos, Karnak, Luxor and the Ramesseum was said to be probably an extra infantry figure. I found this free download Chasing Chariots which may be of interest to fans of Bronze Age chariots:

https://www.sidestone.com/books/chasing-chariots

[Andreas Johansson]

You might want to check out Ian Russel Lowell's article in Slingshot #309, where he argues for the third man = infantryman hitching a ride interpretation.

[Justin Swanton]

Here's a discussion we had on chariots as battering rams with a secondary role as shooting platforms.

[Cyrus]

Thanks Andreas and Justin, I've dug that issue out and will give it a read, likewise the thread on the forum.

[lionheartrjc]

To be clear, in the podcast we were referring to the eastern chariots of the Hittite empire, not the Western Anatolian "box" style chariots - where the verdict is much less certain.

[aligern]

We don''t really know how chariots operated.  There is a degree of 'form follows function' in the arguments.  If a chariot is vey light and the crewman has a bow then its pretty obvious it is a missile platform and its tactics should be  to deliver arrows and avoid contact and protect against incoming shots ( so the driver carries a shield and eventuall crew and horses are armoured.  But the chariot can also be used to either crack infantry by charging towards them, even if veering off if they hold,  or smacking into them and using the combination if armoured horses and rapid bow and javelin fire to make contact effective.  One can be dogmatic and say that horses will not charge firmed bodies of men, but they will. Certainly armoured horses will and will survive. Similarly it has been held that a man in a chariot cab cannot stick an opponent with a long spear as he will be projected out of the cab, but then it used to be  suggested that a stirrupless, saddle less cavalryman who contacted an opponent with a spear held rigid, would be projected over the rump of his horse. Those orthodoxies have been defeated, so the spearman might well be fighting from the cab!
Roy

[Justin Swanton]

If a chariot is vey light and the crewman has a bow then its pretty obvious it is a missile platform and its tactics should be  to deliver arrows and avoid contact and protect against incoming shots ( so the driver carries a shield and eventuall crew and horses are armoured.

On the other hand if a chariot is very light then the horses are able to get up an optimal charging speed, increasing their impact against enemy infantry, whilst the chariot's lightness enables it to bounce easily over prone bodies. The charioteer's bow is effective in keeping fleeing enemy troops on the run, killing a few in the process, besides enabling him to target enemy charioteers and cavalry.

[Mick Hession]

On the other hand if a chariot is very light then the horses are able to get up an optimal charging speed, increasing their impact against enemy infantry,

Are you suggesting that chariot horses were intended to physically crash into enemy infantry? Or indeed anything? Seems a strange way to employ a delicate and very expensive asset.

regards
Mick

[Mark G]

Impact and light weight are contradictory.

You are better looking at the design. 

If the chariot has wide axels it is designed to remain stable on a speedy turn, and those wider axels are inherently more fragile than narrow ones.  It becomes highly improbable that such a design is to support an impact contact, when it is clearly superior for fast turning.

Also, if the axel is positioned at the rear, then the intent is to distribute weight differently from a mid cab axel.  It becomes possible with a mud cab axel to have men stand either side to use the axel to take weight off the horse, so more weight can be carried.  I understand that the rear axel would however absorb more vibration than a mid axel- which if true would again support missile over impact.

And always keep in mind, these are ponies not horses. They just aren't that big.

[Justin Swanton]

On the other hand if a chariot is very light then the horses are able to get up an optimal charging speed, increasing their impact against enemy infantry,

Are you suggesting that chariot horses were intended to physically crash into enemy infantry?

I am. Horses were used to physically charge infantry from the dawn of warfare. Plenty of threads on that topic!

[Mark G]

Ponies are not horses, especially ones attached to a contraption designed to perform the opposite task

[aligern]

I doubt that a vehicle like the Hyksos chariot is to be used for contact moves unless the enemy is in a very open order. The light framed chariot is useful against armies of spearmen it can carry 100 arrows abd can move rapidly to the point where the chariots can pick on the shieldless side and rear  of the infantry and take them down from close range as even close up the infantry cannot catch their tormentors.  Presumably the infantry  respond with more of their own bowmen and with their own chariots. This causes a response by the charioteers who armour man and horse.  At the point at which the horses become  armoured it becomes far more feasible to advance into the infantry formation, shooting and throwing javelins and jabbing with spears.  At close ranges the light chariot crews coukd use javelins.
Looking at those big Assyrian chariots , they  can either shoot or close with the enemy. If the foe is Elamite bowmen in an open order then contact with the infantry is very feasible. How often were mid Eastern foot the type that would form up densely and see off chariots or cavalry ? Interestingly, the advent of the scythed chariot occurs simultaneously with the arrival on the scene of mainland Greek hoplites. Maybe the arrival of solid infantry causes the Persians to upgrade chariot armour and weaponry whereas against tge less drilled locals simply a big chariot was enough?
Roy

[Justin Swanton]

One can argue that a light or heavy chariot is suitable for charging infantry, just in different ways. Given that it is the horses that actually contact the infantry and knock them flat, a light chariot will easily bounce over their prone bodies - we see chariots running over prone foot in Egyptian art and Egyptian chariots are lightweight. A heavy chariot will help to crush the prone infantry and further incapacitate them. And the horses weren't ponies, just somewhat smaller than modern horses. They were quite capable of knocking down several ranks of foot.

On the other hand, chariots would have been very useful as mobile missile platforms, especially against infantry, as the infantry could do nothing about them whereas they could charge enemy infantry archers. The chariots could go around a body of foot for hours, shooting at them and demoralising them, until the time was ripe for a charge. A chariot charge wasn't guaranteed to work in every circumstance and needed the right conditions before attempting it.

[lionheartrjc]

Even if a light chariot can collide into formed bodies of infantry and escape unharmed (which I am incredibly sceptical about) - why bother.  You can come in, shoot, turn away (still shooting) and then repeat up to 8 times.  If (a big if) the infantry survive all of that without routing - then go away, take a breather, get more arrows and repeat the process later.

[Justin Swanton]

Even if a light chariot can collide into formed bodies of infantry and escape unharmed (which I am incredibly sceptical about) - why bother.  You can come in, shoot, turn away (still shooting) and then repeat up to 8 times.  If (a big if) the infantry survive all of that without routing - then go away, take a breather, get more arrows and repeat the process later.

And repeat again and again until night falls and the infantry are able to get away.