Xiongnu standards

[Ade G]

Looking at producing some banners for my Xiongnu and wondered if the animal styles seen on belt buckles etc (ibex, tiger etc) might be acceptable?

[DBS]

Absolutely no expertise, but one wonders whether, on cloth/silk banners, a tamgha?  Certainly monarchs of "nomadic" extraction, such as Kushans and assorted Scythians, used tamghas on their coins...

I have tried it on my 6mm figures - was not happy with the first attempt, but that was because of the scale and my competence, not the principle.

[Duncan Head]

The old John Greer WRG Chinese book suggested stag standards based on pole-tops from Pazyryk in the broad "Scythic" animal tradition. There is no direct evidence that I know of that these are any sort of "standard", though.

There's one suggestion in a Chinese painting here, but it looks a bit "stereotype barbarian" to me.

Otherwise, no firm clues.

[Ade G]

Absolutely no expertise, but one wonders whether, on cloth/silk banners, a tamgha?  Certainly monarchs of "nomadic" extraction, such as Kushans and assorted Scythians, used tamghas on their coins...

I have tried it on my 6mm figures - was not happy with the first attempt, but that was because of the scale and my competence, not the principle.

It does seem to be a fairly universal symbol so bears consideration - thank you

[Ade G]

The old John Greer WRG Chinese book suggested stag standards based on pole-tops from Pazyryk in the broad "Scythic" animal tradition. There is no direct evidence that I know of that these are any sort of "standard", though.

There's one suggestion in a Chinese painting here, but it looks a bit "stereotype barbarian" to me.

Otherwise, no firm clues.

Thank you Duncan - I had seen some very "Scythian" images - apparently tigers carrying their prey are common as well as ibex which might equate to stags
In the absence of concrete evidence I will go with my original idea

[aligern]

Doesn't the Ordos plaque have draco type windsock standards .  I recall that these were widespread across the steppe and indeed that cultural, costume and  military items  moved from their place of invention on the steppe east or west with ease.
There is also the question of the multiple tailed flags that the Avars likely introduced to the Byzantines.  This style appears to oust the windsock type in the West.  Whether the multi tailed flags originate with the Turks, or go further back to the Xiong Nu I will leave to those expert in Central and  Eastern Asia.
Roy

[Ade G]

Doesn't the Ordos plaque have draco type windsock standards .  I recall that these were widespread across the steppe and indeed that cultural, costume and  military items  moved from their place of invention on the steppe east or west with ease.
There is also the question of the multiple tailed flags that the Avars likely introduced to the Byzantines.  This style appears to oust the windsock type in the West.  Whether the multi tailed flags originate with the Turks, or go further back to the Xiong Nu I will leave to those expert in Central and  Eastern Asia.
Roy

Thanks Roy. I did wonder about windsocks (I did wolf windsocks for my Bulgars) but wanted my Xiongnu to look different

[Duncan Head]

No, the Ordos plaques don't. Roy may be thinking about the similarly-named Orlat plaques, which are too late and too far west to be "classic" Xongnu; links with late Xiongnu splinter groups have been suggested, but not to my mind convincingly.

[aligern]

You are right Duncan, its the Orlat plaques I was thinking of.  The Xiong Nu question is of interest in the debate as to whether the Huns are descended from the Xiong-Nu, descended from a component part of a  Xiong-Nu  confederation, just possibly using a name that might relate to the X-N in generating an ethnic identity ( like the Magyars alluding to the Huns) .
I wonder, Duncan, if you have seen anything on the origin of the Windsock standards?
Roy

[Duncan Head]

I wonder, Duncan, if you have seen anything on the origin of the Windsock standards?

Not really. Nothing earlier than Trajan's Column in the West and, apart from the Orlat plaque whose date is of course much discussed, nothing earlier than about the 7th century in Central Asia. The Orlat example seems to be a headless windsock, so maybe it is an early version?

There's the Fectio article, Jon Coulston's JRMES one, Nickel's piece of peripheral relevance

[DBS]

I realise that this shows nothing that alters the price of fish in any way, but noticed that a set of links to Sogdian murals has recently been posted on TMP, and this one in particular caught my eye, as there is definitely a windsock in the background.  If 7th century, matches exactly Duncan's comments above re earliest central Asian evidence.

Sogdian windsock http://warfare.tk/6-10/Sogdian_murals_from_Panjakent-6-8C-7.htm

[Duncan Head]

I confess myself slightly uncertain as to whether that is a windsock or just a long pennon, because of the wear round the "head" area. But it's certainly a possibility.

[DBS]

Fair comment - it seems so to my eye, but as you say, my certitude may be misplaced!

I also noticed that some of the pennants in other murals from the series were quite distinctive - but again that my be my ignorance of central Asian matters.