Longbow fantasy

[Erpingham]

I'm reading once more about longbows and thinking of how best to represent them in wargames.  I've done it many times before but this time I'm approaching it through more of a 16th century filter.  I couldn't help, however, noticing some online articles as I searched.  This article in particular stood out.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/the-english-longbow-machine.html

This is probably one of the most inaccurate mainstream historical articles I've seen on the internet.  It's not even it is full of wacky theories, just that the author has assembled all the myths and cliches in one place.

To take a sample sentence from the first para

A six-foot bow made of yew wood (not always), the English longbow had a draw weight of between 80 and 150 pounds (broadly accurate based on the Mary Rose finds), an effective range of up to 350 yards . (define effective - a good archer could shoot an arrow that far but with limited accuracy.  Sixteenth century sources (pro and con longbows) put their expectation of an effective archer as able to reach 180-240 yds with a livery arrow) The heavy war arrows used were able to penetrate all but the very best steel plate armor of the medieval period. (probably true but taken with the previous statement, the suggestion is it could do it regularly and at range, which is wrong - in normal battlefield use longbows were poor against armoured targets)

And so it goes.  The Welsh origin, Gerald of Wales making the first written reference to longbows (he doesn't mention longbows), Henry 1st making a law about longbows (which would contradict Gerald of Wales in the reign of Henry II making the first reference if it were true) ....

Anyway, maybe one day I'll get so far as to write another article about longbows.  In the short term, more likely is a topic on usage and representation for us to chew over.

[aligern]

Please write it Anthony. There has always been a lack of a concise picture of longbow effectiveness from the eleventh century through to the sixteenth. why are longbows so super effective early on and so ineffective at the end of their story. Armouring horses looks to be an effective answer from relatively early on. They are clearly very dangerous to unarmoured Scots and Irish. The longbow, of course and particularly its arrows develops through the period, so presumably does training and tactical deployment and all this is entwined with English nationalism....and it can do with further disentangling and clarification.
Roy

[Erpingham]

If I were writing a blog, I could probably have a go at setting down the state of my researches.  Alas, a properly reasoned article needs a proper marshalling of sources and an explanation of why I give them the weight I do and this is a very big subject.  And there are some gaps I'd be interested to fill (anyone know a good detailed monograph on Burgundian military archery 1400-1500?).

Currently, I'm mainly focussed on the sixteenth century English evidence which, for shifts in technology but equally in fashion for military manual writing, gives a lot more detail than earlier works.  The trick is to try to see through the evolution of archery in its late period to try to get a handle on earlier practice in our period of interest. 

[RichT]

Alas, a properly reasoned article needs a proper marshalling of sources and an explanation of why I give them the weight I do and this is a very big subject.

True. But while a full reasoned argument would be a lot of work, is there scope for something more like a 'current state of play' type article? Something saying what we do and don't know, and what we think we know that isn't so (like the www article you quote - the baleful role of the www as a massive source of entrenched misinformation is a subject in itself), and what more we would like to know? I know precious little about longbows and my books on the subject are no doubt out of date, so any update, even if it didn't reach any conclusions, would be valuable. I think Ss is a good place to put blog-type articles, and is in part its advantage over heavyweight historical journals.

[Erpingham]

One of the main issues is steering between the maximalists (e.g. Hardy) and minimalists (e.g. De Vries).  I was re-reading Mike Loades' Longbow this morning and I think he does this pretty well.  While I disagree with the emphasis he puts on the longbow as a short range weapon (at least in part because it is at odds with the sixteenth century authors, even the anti-longbow ones) I do think he is right to challenge the maximalists over emphasis on range.  He is also quite realistic about the weapon's armour-defeating prowess.  Anyway, as said, I might offer up some major schools of thought up for a little discussion on the forum and I will consider a bit more of a review on usage further.

[Anton]

I would be very interested to read your thoughts on the subject Anthony.  I might be able to add something myself on the use of the bow among the Scots Highlanders ad in the Nine Years War in Ireland.

[Erpingham]

I would be very interested to read your thoughts on the subject Anthony.  I might be able to add something myself on the use of the bow among the Scots Highlanders ad in the Nine Years War in Ireland.

That would be interesting Stephen.  There is an interesting question about Highlanders, longbows and the so-called Gaelic bow which might be explored.

[Imperial Dave]

Of course there is the semi hypocryfal tale of the arrow through Abergavenny keep door and similar to draw upon should you wish to include

[Anton]

I would be very interested to read your thoughts on the subject Anthony.  I might be able to add something myself on the use of the bow among the Scots Highlanders ad in the Nine Years War in Ireland.

That would be interesting Stephen.  There is an interesting question about Highlanders, longbows and the so-called Gaelic bow which might be explored.

That could be explored.  The poems of Ian Lom MacDonald tell us quite a lot about bows and guns.  I don't know how much weight to put on "Gaelic" bows, clearly they existed.  On the other hand Highlanders clearly used longbows proper too.

[Erpingham]

I would be very interested to read your thoughts on the subject Anthony.  I might be able to add something myself on the use of the bow among the Scots Highlanders ad in the Nine Years War in Ireland.

That would be interesting Stephen.  There is an interesting question about Highlanders, longbows and the so-called Gaelic bow which might be explored.

There are a set of questions, based on some of the stuff I've seen, on when Highlander and Islemen adopted longbows which I was not aware of until recently.  I'd always assumed some long standing use native to the area but I've seen that doubted and the Gaelic bow suggested as the traditional weapon.

That could be explored.  The poems of Ian Lom MacDonald tell us quite a lot about bows and guns.  I don't know how much weight to put on "Gaelic" bows, clearly they existed.  On the other hand Highlanders clearly used longbows proper too.

[Anton]

Just thinking aloud here rather than coming to a firm position.

The Gaelic bow seems to have been rather like the Welsh bow.  It's easy to see why that might be. Close connections between Ireland and Wales and at least some of Strongbow's Welsh become assimilated- adopting the Irish surname  Breatnach (Briton).

The Highland military tradition owes a fair amount to Scandinavian influence.  Bows were part of that.  How would we classify the Viking bow?

Betimes the King of Scots made prestige gifts of bows to Highland leaders.  These were well received. Presumably they are longbows as that's what Lowland Scots archers used.  I could look up Ian Lom's descriptions of bows if I can locate my notes.  That might tell us more.

I'm not up to date with the "when Highlanders adopted the bow" debate could you say more?

[Erpingham]

You've got the basics of the debate right there Stephen as I understand it.

Let us consider the influences in the Highlands and Islands.  There were Picts, who used bows (type unknown), there were then Vikings (type of longbow) but the Islemen were very involved in Irish matters and could have come across Welsh-type bows there from 12th century.  The gaelic bow was short and powerful.  Was it related to the Welsh bow, or another type again?  So what were our Highlands and Islands folks armed with, given all these potential types .  For the confused, I'm not making this up - real historians have raised these points.

When did the longbow reach the Highlands and Islands?  Maybe it was always there.  Maybe they adopted it as it became more common in Scotland and Ireland in the 14th century.  Or did the emphasis on archery in 15th century Scottish weapon laws really increase the usage?  Again, all ideas I've read.

I'm sure Stephen is aware of this but, unlike the English longbow, we do have a surviving medieval Scottish bow.    It is of yew and similar to the Waterford bows from Medieval Ireland.  But is it a typical Scottish bow or even a military bow at all?

Add : for some more bits and pieces on Gaelic archery http://ceathairne.blogspot.com/2012/01/gaelic-archery.html

[Duncan Head]

There were Picts, who used bows (type unknown)

How sure are we of this? The "Drosten Stone",  St Vigean's no. 1, is probably the best-known depiction of a Pictish missile-user, and is probably the source of Phil Barker's Pictish archer from AEIR, very influential on figure-manufacturers; but of course this shows a crossbowman! (And of course a huntsman, not a warrior.) John Gilbert in the linked article says that "These bows are readily distinguishable from the short bows portrayed on the 7th- or 8th-century Ruthwell Cross and on the 10th-century Sueno's  stone"; but of these, the Ruthwell Cross appears to be Anglo-Saxon and Sueno's stone is too late to be strictly Pictish, and certainly late enough that the bows might be the result of Viking influence. Do we have any good evidence for Pictish archers at all?

[Mick Hession]

The Irish word for bow (boga) is a borrowing from Norse so the Gaelic bow is probably of ultimate Norse descent. Given the mixed Norse/Gaelic population of the Isles I suspect the Highland bow originated there- the McDonalds' lands stretched from Ulster to the Great Glen after all.

[Erpingham]

Do we have any good evidence for Pictish archers at all?

Oh no! In debunking some myths, I've fallen for another

Good question, Duncan.  Stephen may have an answer, as I believe he has studied the Picts.